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Old 06-23-2017, 01:55 PM
 
331 posts, read 171,482 times
Reputation: 916

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Motor View Post
Then live it, but to say-- "I did not ask to be born into this lousy World"--is lame. I was not asked for my opinion by God: I was born one day, and welcomed into the World, by that method. I won't be checking out by my own hand, I will wait on God. He brought me in, and He will take me out.
I tend to agree with you. Those of us who view life as a gift from God are unlikely to commit suicide. Even the "evidence" from Near Death Experiences suggests that suicide is a grievous error, essentially throwing the gift of life back in the face of the Giver. A 2004 study, "Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt," http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/...jp.161.12.2303, concluded: "Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide."

The vast majority of suicides are committed for reasons that pale in comparison to the pain, suffering and tragedies with which millions of other people go on living and coping. That is simply an undeniable fact. There is an old saying to the effect that "people commit suicide because their shoelaces break," and often the immediate circumstances that provoke a suicide can seem just about that silly.

That being said, suicide certainly can be (and virtually always is) the consequence of serious mental illness or temporary irrationality. We can empathize with these suicides, but in some way society has failed them. There are simply too many available sources of support for suicide ever to be a necessary or even rational act. It cannot always be prevented, but when it isn't society has in some way failed the individual.

If a relative or close friend of mine committed suicide, I'm sure I would always be haunted to at least some extent by thoughts of why I hadn't seen it coming or might have done to prevent it. I have had a few fairly distant acquaintances commit suicide, and I am haunted a bit even by them. One lawyer acquaintance, who seemed like a genuinely nice guy, jumped off the third story of a parking garage for reasons still unknown to me, and I was genuinely shocked by the callousness of the attitudes within our office.

In any event, I don't believe suicide should ever be viewed as a "heroic" act, as someone taking the ultimate control over his or her own destiny. As a Christian, I don't believe we "own" our lives or that suicide is ever consistent with God's plan for someone's life.

I don't see jonesg's post about suicide being a selfish act as being unfair. It would be a rare suicide who did not leave behind a host of shocked and grieving people who cared, who will spend the rest of their lives wishing they could have helped and wondering how they failed. We cannot always expect someone on the brink of suicide to take this into consideration, but certainly it is the reality. Sugarcoating this reality doesn't benefit anyone - certainly not the suicide himself.
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Old 06-23-2017, 02:21 PM
 
473 posts, read 176,350 times
Reputation: 1537
I am sorry for your loss. Your friend's suffering must have been immense if he felt suicide was his only relief. His last goodbye was a message of love to you all.

((((hugs))))
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Old 06-24-2017, 12:57 PM
 
Location: St Pete
75 posts, read 24,883 times
Reputation: 157
Default An Erudite Response, In Sharp Contrast To Some Others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74 View Post
I tend to agree with you. Those of us who view life as a gift from God are unlikely to commit suicide. Even the "evidence" from Near Death Experiences suggests that suicide is a grievous error, essentially throwing the gift of life back in the face of the Giver. A 2004 study, "Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt," http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/...jp.161.12.2303, concluded: "Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide."

The vast majority of suicides are committed for reasons that pale in comparison to the pain, suffering and tragedies with which millions of other people go on living and coping. That is simply an undeniable fact. There is an old saying to the effect that "people commit suicide because their shoelaces break," and often the immediate circumstances that provoke a suicide can seem just about that silly.

That being said, suicide certainly can be (and virtually always is) the consequence of serious mental illness or temporary irrationality. We can empathize with these suicides, but in some way society has failed them. There are simply too many available sources of support for suicide ever to be a necessary or even rational act. It cannot always be prevented, but when it isn't society has in some way failed the individual.

If a relative or close friend of mine committed suicide, I'm sure I would always be haunted to at least some extent by thoughts of why I hadn't seen it coming or might have done to prevent it. I have had a few fairly distant acquaintances commit suicide, and I am haunted a bit even by them. One lawyer acquaintance, who seemed like a genuinely nice guy, jumped off the third story of a parking garage for reasons still unknown to me, and I was genuinely shocked by the callousness of the attitudes within our office.

In any event, I don't believe suicide should ever be viewed as a "heroic" act, as someone taking the ultimate control over his or her own destiny. As a Christian, I don't believe we "own" our lives or that suicide is ever consistent with God's plan for someone's life.

I don't see jonesg's post about suicide being a selfish act as being unfair. It would be a rare suicide who did not leave behind a host of shocked and grieving people who cared, who will spend the rest of their lives wishing they could have helped and wondering how they failed. We cannot always expect someone on the brink of suicide to take this into consideration, but certainly it is the reality. Sugarcoating this reality doesn't benefit anyone - certainly not the suicide himself.
That is the most intelligent post that I have read on a forum; and it heartens me to know that there are level headed people here. My grandfather committed suicide, by using a pocket .38; and a friend of did it by putting a shotgun in his mouth. Both events left people mortified, and wondering why they did it. My mother never once spoke of her fathers suicide (my grandfather), it devastated her. I have never seen a good or favorable outcome, when someone commits suicide.

PS: It is impossible to ferret out how a person really feels; they can mislead, by putting up a fabrication of seeming happiness; or a facade of good fortune. And I keep that in mind: I do not add to a persons burdens, if I can avoid doing that: and I try to ease their load if I can do that. It helps me to sleep at night, and I have a Judgement Day to attend to as well. I have an appointment, whether I wanted it or not, and I believe that, as a Christian.

Last edited by Big Motor; 06-24-2017 at 01:17 PM..
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Old 06-24-2017, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
16,858 posts, read 51,363,981 times
Reputation: 27740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74 View Post
I tend to agree with you. Those of us who view life as a gift from God are unlikely to commit suicide. Even the "evidence" from Near Death Experiences suggests that suicide is a grievous error, essentially throwing the gift of life back in the face of the Giver. A 2004 study, "Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt," http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/...jp.161.12.2303, concluded: "Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide."

The vast majority of suicides are committed for reasons that pale in comparison to the pain, suffering and tragedies with which millions of other people go on living and coping. That is simply an undeniable fact. There is an old saying to the effect that "people commit suicide because their shoelaces break," and often the immediate circumstances that provoke a suicide can seem just about that silly.

That being said, suicide certainly can be (and virtually always is) the consequence of serious mental illness or temporary irrationality. We can empathize with these suicides, but in some way society has failed them. There are simply too many available sources of support for suicide ever to be a necessary or even rational act. It cannot always be prevented, but when it isn't society has in some way failed the individual.

If a relative or close friend of mine committed suicide, I'm sure I would always be haunted to at least some extent by thoughts of why I hadn't seen it coming or might have done to prevent it. I have had a few fairly distant acquaintances commit suicide, and I am haunted a bit even by them. One lawyer acquaintance, who seemed like a genuinely nice guy, jumped off the third story of a parking garage for reasons still unknown to me, and I was genuinely shocked by the callousness of the attitudes within our office.

In any event, I don't believe suicide should ever be viewed as a "heroic" act, as someone taking the ultimate control over his or her own destiny. As a Christian, I don't believe we "own" our lives or that suicide is ever consistent with God's plan for someone's life.

I don't see jonesg's post about suicide being a selfish act as being unfair. It would be a rare suicide who did not leave behind a host of shocked and grieving people who cared, who will spend the rest of their lives wishing they could have helped and wondering how they failed. We cannot always expect someone on the brink of suicide to take this into consideration, but certainly it is the reality. Sugarcoating this reality doesn't benefit anyone - certainly not the suicide himself.
*sigh*

First, some of the posts in this thread are judgmental and border upon cruel, and probably reportable. From the sticky at the top of the forum:

There are people who come here and post after-loss thoughts and feelings, whose hearts are heavy, and who are hurting. This is not the place for hard debate, for bluntness, or for strong criticism. Most of the people here need a shoulder and some comfort.

There is no debate that many people get great comfort from their chosen religion. There is no debate that most religions have a code of conduct or morality that are a guide to the living of life by the adherents. There is no debate that some religions view suicide as a sin. This is not the place to state that the Great Spaghetti Monster will get you if you suicide. This is a place to be kind and offer comfort. If you don't know how to do that or what it is, I am sure the religion of your choice has remedial classes on the subject.

A few quick thoughts on the abstract of the study cited. I have worked in a mental institution, have other qualifications, and my comments are not unfounded armchair quarterbacking.

First, there is an issue with the cohort of 371 inpatients. It is selective - not representative of the general population - and small enough that regional and other factors may be skewing any results. Institutions in the Bible Belt will have different statistical norms than those of the left coast.

Secondly, in an institutional setting there is a percentage of patients with organic brain dysfunction who may have odd relationships to religion. I remember one pt. with a fetish for tearing cloth, which had religious significance to him. I remember a couple others where suicidal thoughts and their religious system were intertwined.

Thirdly, the objective references Durkheim's work, which pales in comparison to Jung's extensive study. Durkheim is not commonly quoted today for a reason. Durkheim is more commonly placed with Marx in history.

Fourthly, The essence of the study objective was to discover if social structure, in the form of (unstated and un-named) religion(s) resulted in reduced numbers of suicide attempts within the inpatient cohort over their lifetimes both within the institution and without. The results are not quantified. Barring verification, the numbers of attempts appear apocryphal and hearsay. No differentiation is suggested on the type of religions involved. Example: In Shinto, seppuku was acceptable and honorable.

Your claim of "The vast majority of suicides are committed for reasons that pale in comparison to the pain, suffering and tragedies with which millions of other people go on living and coping. That is simply an undeniable fact." is in fact speculation without any foundation. A more accurate statement might be that many who suicide do so under less dire situations than those who decide not to suicide. By invoking comparison, you call forth extremes, such as Saint Lawrence of Rome, and claiming that anyone not suffering to that extent is somehow unworthy of the act.

Simplistic judgments, such as suicide is always bad, run up against other simplistic judgments, such as "It is noble for a soldier to enter into a suicide mission to save others or defend his country." You can't have it both ways. Soldiers commit suicide in battles, simply by following orders. The ultimate agathusia is arguably Jesus.

My points are simply to point out that compassion for both the person committing the act and those close to that person is far kinder than judgment or disapprobation. Simply saying "I'm sorry." carries more weight and shows more spirituality than some of the posts in this thread.
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Old 06-24-2017, 04:29 PM
 
4,316 posts, read 2,156,252 times
Reputation: 7606
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
*sigh*

First, some of the posts in this thread are judgmental and border upon cruel, and probably reportable. From the sticky at the top of the forum:

There are people who come here and post after-loss thoughts and feelings, whose hearts are heavy, and who are hurting. This is not the place for hard debate, for bluntness, or for strong criticism. Most of the people here need a shoulder and some comfort.

There is no debate that many people get great comfort from their chosen religion. There is no debate that most religions have a code of conduct or morality that are a guide to the living of life by the adherents. There is no debate that some religions view suicide as a sin. This is not the place to state that the Great Spaghetti Monster will get you if you suicide. This is a place to be kind and offer comfort. If you don't know how to do that or what it is, I am sure the religion of your choice has remedial classes on the subject.

A few quick thoughts on the abstract of the study cited. I have worked in a mental institution, have other qualifications, and my comments are not unfounded armchair quarterbacking.

First, there is an issue with the cohort of 371 inpatients. It is selective - not representative of the general population - and small enough that regional and other factors may be skewing any results. Institutions in the Bible Belt will have different statistical norms than those of the left coast.

Secondly, in an institutional setting there is a percentage of patients with organic brain dysfunction who may have odd relationships to religion. I remember one pt. with a fetish for tearing cloth, which had religious significance to him. I remember a couple others where suicidal thoughts and their religious system were intertwined.

Thirdly, the objective references Durkheim's work, which pales in comparison to Jung's extensive study. Durkheim is not commonly quoted today for a reason. Durkheim is more commonly placed with Marx in history.

Fourthly, The essence of the study objective was to discover if social structure, in the form of (unstated and un-named) religion(s) resulted in reduced numbers of suicide attempts within the inpatient cohort over their lifetimes both within the institution and without. The results are not quantified. Barring verification, the numbers of attempts appear apocryphal and hearsay. No differentiation is suggested on the type of religions involved. Example: In Shinto, seppuku was acceptable and honorable.

Your claim of "The vast majority of suicides are committed for reasons that pale in comparison to the pain, suffering and tragedies with which millions of other people go on living and coping. That is simply an undeniable fact." is in fact speculation without any foundation. A more accurate statement might be that many who suicide do so under less dire situations than those who decide not to suicide. By invoking comparison, you call forth extremes, such as Saint Lawrence of Rome, and claiming that anyone not suffering to that extent is somehow unworthy of the act.

Simplistic judgments, such as suicide is always bad, run up against other simplistic judgments, such as "It is noble for a soldier to enter into a suicide mission to save others or defend his country." You can't have it both ways. Soldiers commit suicide in battles, simply by following orders. The ultimate agathusia is arguably Jesus.

My points are simply to point out that compassion for both the person committing the act and those close to that person is far kinder than judgment or disapprobation. Simply saying "I'm sorry." carries more weight and shows more spirituality than some of the posts in this thread.

." This is not the place to state that the Great Spaghetti Monster will get you if you suicide "

Also, "not the place " to ridicule God !
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Old 06-24-2017, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Location: Location
6,222 posts, read 7,407,334 times
Reputation: 17871
snip
Quote:
Originally Posted by charolastra00 View Post
Last night, one of my oldest friends posted a suicide letter on Facebook.
I can only offer my sincere condolences. I cannot imagine the grief you feel, added to the other burdens that seem to have been your portion in life.

Try to find peace in the knowledge that your friend has finally found his.
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Old 06-25-2017, 01:14 AM
 
9,291 posts, read 5,792,928 times
Reputation: 7547
Quote:
Originally Posted by charolastra00 View Post
Last night, one of my oldest friends posted a suicide letter on Facebook. I saw it within moments of his posting and immediately called him, and when I got no answer, called his city's police. Several of his friends did the same, and a local friend jumped in his car and was at my friend's house within 15 minutes. It was already too late - he pulled the trigger seemingly immediately after he posted the note. Even when I called the police, I had a feeling that was the case. He was not one to make a dramatic cry for help hoping for likes or comments: it was his goodbye.

He was almost 31 years old... an Army veteran who joined right after high school graduation because he saw no other option for getting out of the trailer park in Alaska that he grew up in. I remember when he joined having conversations with him that indicated his heart wasn't really in it, but he was hopeful for the chance to go to college and get career training. Instead, he served several tours of duty and returned with PTSD, chronic pain, and skills that were mismatched with civilian life. The last few years have been tough, yet he persevered and went to counseling, tried to better himself, and rose up from menial jobs like working overnight as a stocker at Walmart to a career helping people. Still lowly paid, especially for Alaska's high COL, but better.

And then last night, it was too much and it was over.

This isn't the first loved one I've lost to suicide, but different in that I watched it happen almost in real time. The suicide letter, the phone calls and unviewed text messages, watching his friends leave comments about trying to reach him, up to half an hour later when the friend that went to check on him posted that he was greeted at the door by the police.

He was one of the kindest, generous people I've ever encountered. We knew each other since we were kids and he would always share any news article about me or anything I did with his friends like a proud big brother. His demons wouldn't allow him to see himself the way that everyone else did. In the end, his suicide note penned himself as the villain of his own story, and it breaks my heart knowing his thoughts were that he was useless and hurtful to those around him. To everyone else, he was a loyal friend and trusted confidant. He just never felt like he deserved to confide in us.

I don't really know how to manage my grief. I went to work today and felt like a crazy person, with wildly varying moods and smiling and even laughing as people gave condolences. I have all the pithy, logical lines about not being able to save someone from themselves and nothing could have been done in my head, but that just doesn't feel right, you know? And I'm so haunted by being "there," even if separated by 3000 miles, for his last words.

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. I'm devastated and don't know how to talk about it.
So sorry. I helped a friend find a support group and they sent us this booklet. I can't tell you how many times we have read it, hope you find it useful. I would look for a support group asap, they really help each other. http://www.detrick.army.mil/asap/sos_handbook.pdf
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Old 06-25-2017, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
16,858 posts, read 51,363,981 times
Reputation: 27740
Quote:
Originally Posted by David A Stone View Post
." This is not the place to state that the Great Spaghetti Monster will get you if you suicide "

Also, "not the place " to ridicule God !
IF I was doing that, I suspect a supreme being could handle it. I was not. The Great Spaghetti Monster is a religion, and the adherents are pastafarians. https://www.venganza.org/ If I had a ridicule of anything, it was stated, and it was the Great Spaghetti Monster. If my linguini offends, I apologize. My comment simply was to point out that judgmental attitudes are not kind - no matter where they come from - and they are not helpful. As a FOLLOWER of a particular religious practice, you certainly have a right to have an intolerant attitude. I would be cautious however about claiming to speak for G*d. Often that does not end well.
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Old 06-25-2017, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Boston
3,714 posts, read 1,263,375 times
Reputation: 5736
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
I am sorry that you feel you have to give people that much power over your own life and that you have a difficult time viewing them with compassion. Perhaps yes, they are unable to see past their own pain. That can certainly be the case. A more selfish action would be the all-to-common murder-suicide, where that anguish results in two deaths.

In regard to the "selfish" concept, remember the mantra we had after 9/11, if we allow the action to affect the way we comport ourselves, then the evil of the action has won. We grew stronger as a nation and in our resolve because we grieved and mourned but carried forth with resolve. Besides, the events around each suicide are unique. Someone who does so in extended fatal illness does not have the same mindset as a jilted lover seeking revenge.

I wish you peace and resolution in your own experience of the fallout.
I have very little compassion for suicides.
I have no tolerance for their selfishness.
And they don't rest in peace.
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Old 06-25-2017, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Boston
3,714 posts, read 1,263,375 times
Reputation: 5736
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
*sigh*

There is no debate that some religions view suicide as a sin. This is not the place to state that the Great Spaghetti Monster will get you if you suicide. This is a place to be kind and offer comfort. ying "I'm sorry." carries more weight and shows more spirituality than some of the posts in this thread.
I was an atheist too, for 45 stupid yrs,
but I would say this is a place for truth.
The truth about suicide is not pretty.
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