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Old 06-25-2017, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Boston
3,714 posts, read 1,263,375 times
Reputation: 5736

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74 View Post
I tend to agree with you. Those of us who view life as a gift from God are unlikely to commit suicide. Even the "evidence" from Near Death Experiences suggests that suicide is a grievous error, essentially throwing the gift of life back in the face of the Giver. A 2004 study, "Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt," http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/...jp.161.12.2303, concluded: "Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide."

The vast majority of suicides are committed for reasons that pale in comparison to the pain, suffering and tragedies with which millions of other people go on living and coping. That is simply an undeniable fact. There is an old saying to the effect that "people commit suicide because their shoelaces break," and often the immediate circumstances that provoke a suicide can seem just about that silly.

That being said, suicide certainly can be (and virtually always is) the consequence of serious mental illness or temporary irrationality. We can empathize with these suicides, but in some way society has failed them. There are simply too many available sources of support for suicide ever to be a necessary or even rational act. It cannot always be prevented, but when it isn't society has in some way failed the individual.

If a relative or close friend of mine committed suicide, I'm sure I would always be haunted to at least some extent by thoughts of why I hadn't seen it coming or might have done to prevent it. I have had a few fairly distant acquaintances commit suicide, and I am haunted a bit even by them. One lawyer acquaintance, who seemed like a genuinely nice guy, jumped off the third story of a parking garage for reasons still unknown to me, and I was genuinely shocked by the callousness of the attitudes within our office.

In any event, I don't believe suicide should ever be viewed as a "heroic" act, as someone taking the ultimate control over his or her own destiny. As a Christian, I don't believe we "own" our lives or that suicide is ever consistent with God's plan for someone's life.

I don't see jonesg's post about suicide being a selfish act as being unfair. It would be a rare suicide who did not leave behind a host of shocked and grieving people who cared, who will spend the rest of their lives wishing they could have helped and wondering how they failed. We cannot always expect someone on the brink of suicide to take this into consideration, but certainly it is the reality. Sugarcoating this reality doesn't benefit anyone - certainly not the suicide himself.
Well no, its not a symptom of serious mental illness.
Its always done AT someone. Someone else is the target.
Spiritual sickness yes. Selfishness is a spiritual malady.
Spiritual sickness may cause all manner of mental/emotional problems but it isn't rooted in any organic mental illness.
Thats why there is no organic compound (med) that can remove selfishness,
and some happy pills come with black box suicide warnings.

I've known many who killed themselves, theres little anyone can do if they are determined.

I told one poor guy he was going to do it if he kept making attempts and he did, I knew he would and he did as they let him out of the rehab he was locked up in. When they're that determined..
Just another atheist whose intellectual pride kept him from considering there might be something greater than his own ego in the universe. I was exactly like that myself, I was atheist and camethisclose.
When I got home from my attempt I was stunned at the idiotic reasoning that had led me to stand on a bridge, it was so trivial I can't even remember what it was today.
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Old 06-25-2017, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Boston
3,714 posts, read 1,263,375 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla View Post
This kind of condemnation is far worse. Many people who commit suicide may believe no one cares about them, or that they are a burden to others. They aren't being "selfish" when they commit suicide.
Yes they are, self pity is a virile form of self, it increases selfishness by giving pity to self.
They believe the lie they tell themself.
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Old 06-25-2017, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Boston
3,714 posts, read 1,263,375 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Motor View Post
Then live it, but to say-- "I did not ask to be born into this lousy World"--is lame. I was not asked for my opinion by God: I was born one day, and welcomed into the World, by that method. I won't be checking out by my own hand, I will wait on God. He brought me in, and He will take me out.
God doesn't take anyone out, He accepts them back.
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Old 06-25-2017, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Boston
3,714 posts, read 1,263,375 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David A Stone View Post
I have counted the number of people I have known quite well who have committed suicide.


In my long life ( 71 years old) it has been 17 people.


They were co-workers, former co-workers. friends, cousin, brother-in- law.


There wasn't a thing I could have done to have prevented any of them !


Perhaps their spouse could have, but I ...........as a friend.......could not.
...yeh 17 is a lot.

I don't have the power of God to turn anyone's will but I remember one young girl in particular.
She asked me what I thought about God and being atheist at that time I didn't have much of an answer.
I didn't know why she was asking.
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Old 06-25-2017, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Boston
3,714 posts, read 1,263,375 times
Reputation: 5736
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troglodyte74 View Post
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/...jp.161.12.2303, concluded: "Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide."

.
Seems a fairly good definition of self centered type.
That study went over like a lead balloon on Dawkins.net at the time (infidels.org) .
I was atheist at the time and trying to kill myself but didn't connect the dots.

I wasn't trying to kill myself because I lacked a sound moral argument against it.
Rather it was because my worldview had no purpose, it was meaningless. I was not mentally ill, I was just batchit insane pretending to be normal and completely closed off from the world by my ego.

I still have no religious affiliation, so they got that part wrong, no-one needs religion to find God.
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Old 06-25-2017, 09:31 PM
 
7,031 posts, read 3,757,641 times
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My sincere condolences on the loss of your friend. You did your best; don't beat yourself up with guilt.

Suicide is so painful for those left behind. Be kind to yourself in the days ahead.

Hugs!
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Old 07-21-2017, 04:00 PM
 
24,956 posts, read 11,630,130 times
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David Wallace said it best in my opinion. And I can relate to it well.
Quote:
“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”
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Old 07-25-2017, 06:42 PM
Status: "Illegal Mob = Challenging Tradition? REALLY??" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,965 posts, read 1,751,124 times
Reputation: 2896
Suicide should be an option ONLY if their condition, physical or mental, lacks any reasonable level of management. Most, if not all, actions have consequences for others, however minor. Some of them quite major. We are obligated to consider the level of hurt, harm, or degradation an act/expression may have on others - even if we ourselves are the only direct recipient of our act/expression. Personally, I say that any suicide should come ONLY after the person is unable to add anything new to the lives of others (or if a clearly ever-deteriorating condition, just before they can't make or carry out their decision).

I don't believe we live our lives only for ourselves, for I see that opening up a whole ethical can of worms, far too many to bring up in this post. So I'll just say that while individualism is important, it's not everything - for the reasons I just gave. All I ask is that anyone contemplating suicide try to see what negative effects it has on others and if it is worth it for others to feel those effects, and consider whether or not anything new you can add to others offsets your anguish. Seeing a counselor or doctor can also help. This is a hard issue that should be taken on a case-by-case basis, which is why I'm necessarily vague. In closing, all I can say is to think of all the pluses and minuses, then determine if exiting life is appropriate or inappropriate.
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Old 07-31-2017, 05:59 PM
Status: "Even better than okay" (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
51,325 posts, read 50,591,986 times
Reputation: 60260
I am sorry, charolastra. It is hard to lose a friend too early.
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