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Old 07-23-2012, 02:27 PM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,908,112 times
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Regardless of whether Colorado is a CC State or not, if a couple of guys had a Semi Auto Pistol on them , they would have been able to fire toward the muzzle flash coming from the Killers Rifle and stood a good chance at dropping him quick assuming his face was exposed with the armor he was wearing . The Colorado shooting has made a 100% Believer in CC out of me and I often scope out the place im in with the anticipation of something simular occuring. We cant be too lax in these terrible times we live in.
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:40 PM
 
142 posts, read 130,118 times
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Lets see, its a dark theater with people screaming running around and tear gas filling the auditorium. throw in that there are people in the theater left and right of the you and you want to have some gun wing a few rounds at a coke can sized target that is moving with all this going on in the dark, to just shoot at the flash. I think it would be much higher that someone else would have been shot and not the shooter.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:10 PM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,908,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hidigger View Post
Lets see, its a dark theater with people screaming running around and tear gas filling the auditorium. throw in that there are people in the theater left and right of the you and you want to have some gun wing a few rounds at a coke can sized target that is moving with all this going on in the dark, to just shoot at the flash. I think it would be much higher that someone else would have been shot and not the shooter.
You havent thought it thru properly ; heres how it would have gone down if a couple of Seasoned Guys would have been carrying :

Since we now know that the Shooter just stood in place in the corner by the screen while he was firing (according to witnesses), our two Seasoned Fellas would have dropped to the floor immediatly, drew their semi's , then quickly crawled to the end of the isle where they would have proceeded to crawl down the stairs that wasnt in the view of the Shooter until they got close to the front of the Theatre then pop up on their knees to rapidly return fire .... especially at the time the Killers rifle jammed . This is the 'basic' scenario ,of course taking into account other Patrons and circumstances that are taking place . With the SHooter focusing his attention on retrieving for cover, it would have given other Patrons a better chance at exiting or moving to better cover. And the Shooters face is about the size of a paper plate and not 'a coke can' .

What makes the Theatre killings so bad, is that NO ONE had anything to defend themselves with , and they were just sitting ducks as a Madman did whatever he wanted .

What would YOU have done if you were a Patron carrying concealed ? Nothing ?
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:52 PM
 
12,186 posts, read 18,341,950 times
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There is/was actually a discussion in the crime forum of all places. I have also read the discussion in several external gun forums.

For the gun forums, the general consensus is not conclusive. It would have been a difficult scene no doubt - smoke, panic, crowded room, body armour. In my opinion a shootout from accross the theater against a long rifle and body armour would be pointless...
HOWEVER, I have no doubt many were shot at close range - 5 to 10 feet, maybe point blank, while hiding behind seats, etc, or trying to approach the exit. That's when a handgun should be used, that's what it is designed for - a weapon of last resort. So personally - I would have been on my hands or knees trying to get the heck out, not being a hero. But if my exit was blocked or the gunman was approaching as I am peeking between the seats, that's when I take the shot or die. Ideally it would not be a fair fight - I would shot him in the back, while he is reloading, while he is distracted if given the oppurtunity. Body armour - don't matter. He is going down when the kenetic energy of the round impacts him. There is one advantage you have - he has many targets, you only have one.
Apparantly some of the victims were military. They would have known what to do as well.

This was what I was trying to stress in the crime forum, some just don't get it, there was one guy that pretty much concluded "there is nothing we can do in that situation, I would just give up and die". You carry a gun not to be some Rambo, standing up and engaging in a fire fight from opposite sides of the theater while you are yelling "HERE I AM TO SAVE THE DAY", the life I want to save is my own, or my families. It's more like "HERE I AM TO SAVE MY LIFE". Flight or fight. Some had the option of flight, sadly no one had the option of fight when that first option was taken from them.

Last edited by Dd714; 07-23-2012 at 04:08 PM..
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:56 PM
 
2,996 posts, read 4,908,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
There is/was actually a discussion in the crime forum of all places. I have also read the discussion in several external gun forums.
For the gun forums, the general consensus is not conclusive. It would have been a difficult scene no doubt - smoke, panic, crowded room, body armour. In my opinion a shootout from accross the theater against a long rilfe and body armour would be pointless...HOWEVER, I have no doubt many were shot at close range - 5 to 10 feet, maybe point blank, while hiding behind seats, etc, or trying to approach the exit. That's when a handgun should be used, that's what it is designed for - a weapon of last resort. So personally - I would have been on my hands or knees trying to get the heck out, not being a hero. But if my exit was blocked or the gunman was approaching as I am peeking between the seats, that's when I take the shot or die. Body armour - don't matter. He is going down when the kenetic energy of the round impacts him.
Apparantly some of the victims were military. They would have known what to do as well.
Its hard to say how One would react IF they had a CC pistol on them in that situation...but Id like to think that i would have been so indignant that a Punk like him with no regard for life was having his twisted fun...that i might have risked my own life to stop him for good.
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:57 PM
 
10,718 posts, read 17,662,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
What makes the Theatre killings so bad, is that NO ONE had anything to defend themselves with , and they were just sitting ducks as a Madman did whatever he wanted .
That's what gun free zones do (which the entire theater chain is), ensure that criminals have a safe haven to commit their crimes.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:02 PM
 
10,718 posts, read 17,662,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
Its hard to say how One would react IF they had a CC pistol on them in that situation...
And that is key, I've been carrying since the early 90's and have never had to unholster, I'd like to think in a situation I would at least be able to do something, hell I was a firefighter for 20 years, I actually enjoyed going into a burning building, but I have no idea how I would react to this situation, you won't know till you are placed in it.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:04 PM
 
142 posts, read 130,118 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5 View Post
You havent thought it thru properly ; heres how it would have gone down if a couple of Seasoned Guys would have been carrying :

Since we now know that the Shooter just stood in place in the corner by the screen while he was firing (according to witnesses), our two Seasoned Fellas would have dropped to the floor immediatly, drew their semi's , then quickly crawled to the end of the isle where they would have proceeded to crawl down the stairs that wasnt in the view of the Shooter until they got close to the front of the Theatre then pop up on their knees to rapidly return fire .... especially at the time the Killers rifle jammed . This is the 'basic' scenario ,of course taking into account other Patrons and circumstances that are taking place . With the SHooter focusing his attention on retrieving for cover, it would have given other Patrons a better chance at exiting or moving to better cover. And the Shooters face is about the size of a paper plate and not 'a coke can' .

What makes the Theatre killings so bad, is that NO ONE had anything to defend themselves with , and they were just sitting ducks as a Madman did whatever he wanted .

What would YOU have done if you were a Patron carrying concealed ? Nothing ?
I may have taken the shot, what I am saying is you take every variable and put a positive spin on it. He was from all reports I have seen wearing Kevlar and a ballistic helmet. He dropped his weapon and used a shot gun and or pistol so even now its you with a summer shirt against a guy with body armor. You are one of those who live a fantasy world and get wood over thinking about "if I were there I could have done this and that" you are like the kid who goes off to war thinking this will be the funnest time of my life until realty sets in.

As I said I may have taken the shot and it may have not been something I would have done, draw fire from a guy who is shooting all over in my direction? It could have worked out in several ways, you could have shot the golden bb and hit him in the eye with a 9mm small pistol [in summer no one is going to carry a Beretta or colt government] like a Glock 26 or Kahr in the dark with gas filling the room at a guy with ballistic armor on. I bet you would charge a Tiger tank with a Garand also.

Now think back to the Gifford shooting, there were two people with CCWs armed and they almost shot each other. In all the confusion I highly doubt your scenario would have ever been able to be accomplished. Maybe if you had two special force current people with guns, maybe, but if my aunt and balls she would be my uncle.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:13 PM
 
142 posts, read 130,118 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHDave View Post
And that is key, I've been carrying since the early 90's and have never had to unholster, I'd like to think in a situation I would at least be able to do something, hell I was a firefighter for 20 years, I actually enjoyed going into a burning building, but I have no idea how I would react to this situation, you won't know till you are placed in it.
Very true, even people who are currently trained for high stress situations would have had a hard time doing what everyone thinks could be done. most of them are Wii players who think its all medal of valor time. When the S it hits the fan most people tend to freeze or panic unless you have been trained. I have yet to meet anyone who who thinks they will not get buck fever on their first hunt not get buck fever on their first hunt, this makes them fire rapidly and unaimed and usually hits nothing of what they wanted to. I have seen deer walk away when guys are pumping out rounds from the waist like the Virginian. These people here who say I would have done this or that also remind me of stymie, I ain't frade of no pirate, Id hit em like this and hit em like that and when one shows up he runs scared.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,381,069 times
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They interviewed the one girl and she said that the gunman stood 3 ft from her and she ducted as he shot and the round took out the person behind her. She also mentioned he threw the canister 4 or 5 rows behind her.

So, the first 3 rows had a pretty good picture of him. If he shot at the girl from 3 ft, that means he was 5 ft from the person on either side of him, maybe 8 ft from the person on either side of them. The point is, if people were armed and allowed to protect themselves, there should have been dozens of people that could of had a clear shot. In my state, were they estimate that 30% + carry concealed, that means that at least 10-15 people were armed and within 25-30 ft from the gunman. Seems a no brainer that the gunman could have been stopped a lot sooner than he was.
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