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Old 06-04-2013, 03:29 AM
 
Location: Farnworth, Lancashire, England
110 posts, read 131,207 times
Reputation: 146

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Guns are manufactured specifically to kill or disable, that is their purpose - that is hardly immature or ignorant, just a fact - how dare you! Of course they are not just for use against other humans - our Licencing regulations do allow guns for those with a specific purpose - farmers particularly, for use against non-human targets, fair enough.
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Old 06-04-2013, 04:05 AM
 
Location: Earth
4,506 posts, read 5,256,024 times
Reputation: 4933
Quote:
Guns are manufactured specifically to kill or disable, that is their purpose
Also untrue!

Guns are manufactured to send a projectile downrange......any other intent is of the person using the tool.

I guess 300 million guns in this country are just waiting for the right moment to live up to their intended use... according to YOU!

Keep digging though....[Mod cut]

Last edited by ElkHunter; 06-04-2013 at 10:33 PM.. Reason: Over the top
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:45 AM
 
Location: Farnworth, Lancashire, England
110 posts, read 131,207 times
Reputation: 146
Yes - [Mod cut] -the OP has clearly used my nation to further his own US socio-political agenda, I would imagine a majority of UK citizens would not be happy with that, to then have my people denigrated (sheep?) to further that position led to my original post, which I will admit was done in anger, my main point, though, remains - there is no popular movement here to take your gun-culture on board, and many of the posts herein are historical and academic.

Last edited by ElkHunter; 06-04-2013 at 10:34 PM.. Reason: Orphaned response
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:21 AM
 
8,127 posts, read 5,699,713 times
Reputation: 11519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Egerton View Post
I am not a sheep - I am 58 years old and have never seen a gun in my life, nor have the vast majority of English people, and I have no wish to see one. The only reason anyone would own a gun is if they wanted to kill people - end of story. Gun crime is very low in this country - it makes headline news. Our crime rates are significantly lower than those in the US, and continue to drop year on year. Our streets are generally safe to walk at any hour of the day or night, even in most urban areas - there are few, if any, no-go areas in my Country - can you say the same? Our system works for us, and it works very well - not long ago Baltimore police came to South Manchester to learn best practice, how our local force had sucessfully counteracted the gang culture whch had built up in that neighbourhood. It's probably true that our system would not transpose itself well to your nation, any more than yours would work in ours -the big difference is that ours works well enough that it is not even in debate, on the political agenda or in the media - we're happy as we are. The fact that you have this on-going debate shows that there are issues in your country which need addressing -it is your debate and argument, not ours.
Actually, you live in a failed society that has declined into a police state where you are watched every minute of the day by cameras, bureaucrats can wander around your personal property in the name of "elf and safety" and British subjects can be charged with a crime for making un-politically correct statements. You also live in a sick society that puts more value on the life of a criminal than on an innocent person (i.e. the prosecutions of people who have harmed home intruders). I say all this in the complete understanding that my country is not that far behind yours. I don't care that guns are illegal in the UK - that's your alls' choice as a nation. But I resent the British/European/liberal assumption that someone who owns a gun to proactively protect themselves and their families is some sort of bloodthirsty killer.

You need to examine the lies you have been told by your media and politicians. I lived in England for a few months. You can't turn on the news or read a paper without hearing some story where everyone in the US is at constant risk of becoming a victim of crime. The problem? With the exception of gun violence, the UK's crime rate is comparable or worse than the US's. You don't hear that though because it makes Brits feel superior to think the US is populated by a bunch of thugs. Let me google that for you

You are right that guns are meant for killing though. There are bad people in this world that need to be killed sometimes. I'd rather live in a country where I can look after my own safety with a gun than an embarrassing place where it takes the police so long to arrive at the scene of a beheading/dismemberment in the middle of the street that the perpetrator has time to engage in an oral political manifesto for passersby.

P.S. About that atrocity - why was it that only women were confronting those two terrorists that butchered that soldier? I saw pictures of men standing around watching with their hands in their pockets. Is your country truly that emasculated where men are afraid to stop an act of evil and have to rely on their women to do it?

Last edited by War Beagle; 06-04-2013 at 07:30 AM..
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:57 AM
 
14,253 posts, read 14,742,795 times
Reputation: 13611
Quote:
Originally Posted by War Beagle View Post
But I resent the British/European/liberal assumption that someone who owns a gun to proactively protect themselves and their families is some sort of bloodthirsty killer.
Fair enough. But you then go on to make a whole bunch of assumptions about Britain and the British. Kind of hypocritical really.

I'm going to let you into a little secret ... both countries are different. Neither is better than the other, just different. You are exhibiting the same kind of feelings of superiority that you criticize the Brits for. And, as usual, the perspective is both shallow and uninformed.

You need to take a step back. Nobody in Britain is trying to take guns away from Americans. It is other Americans who are questioning gun ownership in this country. You need to deal with that and pretending that the British experience provides any kind of parallel is at best tenuous.
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:30 AM
 
8,127 posts, read 5,699,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
Fair enough. But you then go on to make a whole bunch of assumptions about Britain and the British. Kind of hypocritical really.

I'm going to let you into a little secret ... both countries are different. Neither is better than the other, just different. You are exhibiting the same kind of feelings of superiority that you criticize the Brits for. And, as usual, the perspective is both shallow and uninformed.

You need to take a step back. Nobody in Britain is trying to take guns away from Americans. It is other Americans who are questioning gun ownership in this country. You need to deal with that and pretending that the British experience provides any kind of parallel is at best tenuous.
My opinion is that (for now) Americans still have a few more rights than the British do. But our government is doing everything it can to erode these rights (irrespective of the party in control) so I do not think that the US is vastly superior by any means. In fact, I think the US has become a garbage country run by a majority of lazy imbeciles (we are definitely an idiocracy now and have been for a while) that are primarily concerned with consuming as much brainless media as possible while getting as much as possible for nothing. The only difference as I see it is that the UK is slightly further along down the same road that the US is on. We'll catch up soon though.

I agree with you that the UK's gun history is of marginal value to Americans. As I pointed out, our histories and gun culture are too different. I am mainly interested in the issue from a historical perspective - I could care less if guns are legal in Britain or not. The only aspect of the originally posted article that I do think is relevant is the issue of incremental gun legislation. In that respect, British history is useful in the American political discourse on guns as a refutation of the argument that there is no possibility of a "slippery slope".
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Farnworth, Lancashire, England
110 posts, read 131,207 times
Reputation: 146
I apologise if anything I said in my original post offended anyone - it was done in haste as a response to what I perceived as an attack on my nation. There is a perception here that the USA is a dangerous place, but I believe it is not just our media to blame - certain elements of the US media (particularly in the Entertainment sector) appear to revel in the 'bad boy' image, and there are even parts of this very website where I have seen posters talk of dangerous neighbourhoods and no-go areas. I am visiting for a month in the fall (which is why I came onto this website), everyone I have spoken to in your country has been very pleasant and helpful and I'm sure when I arrive I'll find a very different place from that portrayed in the media.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:04 AM
 
14,253 posts, read 14,742,795 times
Reputation: 13611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Egerton View Post
I apologise if anything I said in my original post offended anyone - it was done in haste as a response to what I perceived as an attack on my nation. There is a perception here that the USA is a dangerous place, but I believe it is not just our media to blame - certain elements of the US media (particularly in the Entertainment sector) appear to revel in the 'bad boy' image, and there are even parts of this very website where I have seen posters talk of dangerous neighbourhoods and no-go areas. I am visiting for a month in the fall (which is why I came onto this website), everyone I have spoken to in your country has been very pleasant and helpful and I'm sure when I arrive I'll find a very different place from that portrayed in the media.
No, the USA is not a dangerous place.

Yes, there is a higher incidence of gun crime. But that needs to be put into perspective. From my time serving on a Grand Jury (where you see a wide cross-section of crimes), most of the incidences of gun crime were bad guys on bad guys - either drug dealers going after each other or disputes between gangs. We had almost no cases of an innocent and unrelated third party being victim of gun crime. Where guns did become a problem was in domestic disputes and, usually, because one partner threatened to kill himself.

I grew up in Glasgow and I am more than aware of the propensity for assault - usually alcohol fueled - and the concept of 'unhealthy' neighborhoods. But I was/am no more nervous about walking the streets of Glasgow than I was walking around New York when I lived there.

I really do think that the media is guilty of fueling crime related paranoia amongst ordinary people. And there are plenty of people on City-Data who like to talk tough about using their guns when they see a crime being committed. Fortunately, I think that most people recognize that the reality of getting caught up in an exchange of fire on the street is very different to their fantasies. Such things are best left to the police and even then, as we found out in New York (33rd St. shootout), the police are more than capable of missing the target and hitting innocent people.

All that said, I do own a gun and I enjoy shooting it. Several of my neighbors are gun owners and we often go shooting together. Other than the range, however, the gun doesn't leave the house despite the fact, under Arizona law, I am free to carry it just about anywhere. But there is no point. Where I live is very safe and you simply do not see people walking about with guns on their hips. Why haul a gun around everywhere when the possibility of something bad happening is extremely remote?

Would I use it if someone broke into my house when I was there. I would certainly arm myself. Hopefully, the threat of deadly force would be sufficient. But, if the intruder had a gun, then yes I would. However, in four months sitting on the Grand Jury, we did not have a single case of home invasion (as opposed to trespass).
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:11 AM
 
8,127 posts, read 5,699,713 times
Reputation: 11519
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
No, the USA is not a dangerous place.

Yes, there is a higher incidence of gun crime. But that needs to be put into perspective. From my time serving on a Grand Jury (where you see a wide cross-section of crimes), most of the incidences of gun crime were bad guys on bad guys...

Excellent point and one that I think all too often gets lost in the statistics. The US is a dangerous place if you are a bad guy. It can also be a dangerous place if you live in certain poorer areas. I think the main fallacy that the media in both the US and the UK perpetrate is that the idea that violence is evenly distributed. The reality is that a lot of places are virtually 100% safe with most of the crime and violence occurring in very specific areas.

In that respect, I think most Western countries are similar. I spent a lot of time in the neighborhood around the British Museum. It was always lovely and I never felt the least bit unsafe. I also visited East London, and while I didn't feel threatened, there was definitely a perception that there was a greater chance to be robbed there than at the British Musuem or in Westminster.
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Old 06-04-2013, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Norway
312 posts, read 325,712 times
Reputation: 314
Quote:
there are few, if any, no-go areas in my Country - can you say the same?
There are plenty of areas in Britain where I certainly would not walk (i.e. any area with predominantly "council housing") be it alone or otherwise. Ain't no such places in Norway, despite the very high rate of firearms ownership. We're not just talking about the eternal "UK vs US" contest (which the UK lost in 1783 if Wikipedia serves me right )
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