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Old 03-26-2014, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,775 posts, read 3,692,509 times
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I always appreciate factual and polite corrections to my opinions. No one is perfect

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Covered by the Constitution, it's not private property therefore the constitution applies, you have the right to bear arms. Now, how you bear arms can be regulated, the important point is regulated is not prohibition, thus by law concealed carry could be prohibited, that does not prevent you bearing arms, just concealed carrying, open carry could be prohibited, that does not prevent you bearing arms, just carrying a weapon openly. However if laws are structured as to prohibit the right to bear arms then those laws are de facto unconstitutional, so for instance if open carry is prohibited, but concealed carry requires a permit, then you cannot lawfully bear arms without a permit, then laws are so structured.

Except the government has no legal standing to regulate firearms on government or common property, regardless of whether or not they regulate transportation methods.
Are the two bold statements not contradictory?

As to the first paragraph quoted above, in the state of Tennessee there is no legal difference between open and concealed carry. There is only carry (weapon is unloaded) and carry with the intent to go armed (weapon is loaded or within easy access to ammunition). As I understand it, the "bear" part of "keep and bear arms" requires that the arm be usable (loaded).

In order to carry a loaded weapon in public in any way whatsoever (concealed, open, in a vehicle, etc.) you MUST obtain a state Handgun Carry Permit. An HCP is also required to carry a loaded long gun, although even with an HCP you may only carry without a round in the chamber. Also, technically, carry with intent is always illegal (39-17-1307), even in your own home; although the fact that you're in your own home or that you have an HCP can be used as an affirmative defense (39-17-1308). An HCP is "shall issue", meaning that as long as you are legally allowed to own a gun and can put most of your test rounds on paper you WILL get a permit, but it does require time and expense to obtain (class, range test, background check, fingerprints, application fee). Arguably a poor person won't be able to afford everything required to obtain a license.

So even though Tennessee is considered to be a "gun friendly" state, by your arguments the state's carry laws are wildly unconstitutional...

Incidentally, whether it's constitutional or not, I still believe the concept of requiring registration before allowing someone to carry a deadly weapon in public is a good idea.
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:44 PM
 
7,282 posts, read 8,414,906 times
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Back in days long past, I had on occasion carried an AR-15 (HBAR) on my back via a sling while riding a motorcycle to and from the range. Once, at a red light, pulled up next to a police cruiser and we exchanged looks. Driver rolled down his window and asked if it was loaded and I replied no. Rolled up his window and at the green light drove off.

For almost 2 years no one ever said a thing, no one got scared, little children didn't hide behind their mothers.

These days, he would have told me to put my hands up and as I fingered the clutch and shifted to neutral to shut off the engine, his partner would have come around from the other side and shot me. The headlines would no doubt read "Biker gang member shot while on the way to ________ with assault rifle."
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:04 PM
 
195 posts, read 218,710 times
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Ernie linde, Exhibition shooter for Winchester, used to shoot at thrown "ice pigeons' with regular .22 ammo, in high school GYMS, folks, using a fold up backstop that he towed on a trailer behind his car. Many high schools had indoor rifle ranges (22 rimfire) and ROTC programs, too. When my dad went to school, he left his single shot 22 rifle with the teacher, so that he could run his traplines again on the way home from school. If he caught anything on the way to school, he had to leave the carcass outside! :-)
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:10 PM
 
195 posts, read 218,710 times
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look, people, you can't lock people up just because they can't be trusted with a gun. After they have served the maximum sentence for whatever their crime was, you MUST free them. If they've committed no new crime,. by WHAT right will you lock them up again, hmm? There's 3 million beds in our jails and prisons. Guess how many are empty, hmm? NONE. There's 3 million guys on parole or probation or some sort of supervision and 10 million felons who are free and clear. So where and how would you lock up the 13 million KNOWN felons, hmm? They cost $30,000 each to be kept locked up, each year, times 13 million men, that's 400 BILLION $ more per year in taxes. Plus they'd have to build 5x as many prisons as they now have, at a cost of say, 150 million per prison. So you can just forget about the idea of locking guys up forever.
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:16 PM
Status: "King of the World" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Itinerant
5,218 posts, read 3,766,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
I always appreciate factual and polite corrections to my opinions. No one is perfect

Are the two bold statements not contradictory?

As to the first paragraph quoted above, in the state of Tennessee there is no legal difference between open and concealed carry. There is only carry (weapon is unloaded) and carry with the intent to go armed (weapon is loaded or within easy access to ammunition). As I understand it, the "bear" part of "keep and bear arms" requires that the arm be usable (loaded).
No...

One is regulating a mechanism of carry, the other is regulating carry itself. Sorry if I was less than clear in my meaning (regulate is used as an overloaded term).

The second amendment prohibits the federal (and through the 14th Amendment via McDonald States) government(s) from infringing the right to bear arms (let's assume that keeping them is a given, you need an arm to bear one).

In the first instance I'm discussing the regulation of methods of bearing arms, the second amendment makes no statements about protecting how you bear arms, only that you cannot be prohibited from doing so in any federally governed territories and now state (of course there is interpretation applied but from the original wording). So for instance a regulation may require that if you bear arms you need to wear a pink tu-tu, pantyhose, steel toed workboots and a sombrero, it does not violate your right to bear arms, it may violate your dignity, but not your right to bear arms.

In the second instance I'm discussing specific regulation to bearing i.e. prohibition or restriction of who can bear, if we look at drivers licensing, then everyone is prohibited from driving except those who are licensed, the same applies with concealed carry permits, everyone is prohibited from concealed carry except those who are permitted. However if the state is an open carry state with a concealed carry permit, there is no blanket prohibition, you do not need a permit to carry, only a permit to concealed carry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
In order to carry a loaded weapon in public in any way whatsoever (concealed, open, in a vehicle, etc.) you MUST obtain a state Handgun Carry Permit. An HCP is also required to carry a loaded long gun, although even with an HCP you may only carry without a round in the chamber. Also, technically, carry with intent is always illegal (39-17-1307), even in your own home; although the fact that you're in your own home or that you have an HCP can be used as an affirmative defense (39-17-1308). An HCP is "shall issue", meaning that as long as you are legally allowed to own a gun and can put most of your test rounds on paper you WILL get a permit, but it does require time and expense to obtain (class, range test, background check, fingerprints, application fee). Arguably a poor person won't be able to afford everything required to obtain a license.

So even though Tennessee is considered to be a "gun friendly" state, by your arguments the state's carry laws are wildly unconstitutional...
Yes I agree that given your interpretation they are wildly unconstitutional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
Incidentally, whether it's constitutional or not, I still believe the concept of requiring registration before allowing someone to carry a deadly weapon in public is a good idea.
I support your right to hold your position. However guns are not the only deadly weapon that can be possessed in public. Would you consider it of equal value to require that only registered persons can carry knives, or chainsaws, or baseball bats or any other item that under the right circumstances may be used as a deadly weapon? (Remember the scene in Casino where Joe Pesci's character kills the guy with a pen?) Ultimately the statistics show that people who have concealed handgun permits are in general not the people who are a threat to public safety or that you want to actually prohibit carrying weapons, and the people who you want to ensure are prohibited from carrying weapons because they are a threat to public safety, will carry regardless of any prohibitions.
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Old 03-26-2014, 06:35 PM
 
195 posts, read 218,710 times
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These mass murder punks want "recognition". So we should stop giving it to them. They are captured at the SCENE, with dozens of witness to their crime. Why can't we just blow off their heads on the spot, hmm? It should be illegal to mention their name, or their crime, or show their picture, forever more. THAT's what would be punks like this should expect. Nothing but a swift end to their worthless lives.
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Old 03-27-2014, 01:18 AM
 
Location: West Phoenix
769 posts, read 893,166 times
Reputation: 1894
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
The constitution guarantees that you have the right to "keep and bear arms". But it is silent on the issue of where you may keep and bear those arms. For example, keeping and bearing arms on your own property is allowed almost everywhere (by multiple court decrees), but you do NOT have the right to bear arms in my private living room unless I personally grant that right to you. So if I don't know and trust you, you will either disarm or you will go away. I'm fairly confident that every other gun owner in this forum feels the same way. Would you allow someone you don't know to go armed inside your house?.
The same could be said for the 1st, it says you have a right to free speech, but it does not say where you can exercise that right.

The Bill of Rights were written for a time where people had common sense and respect for the law and their fellow man, neither of which seem to apply anymore.
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Old 03-27-2014, 01:21 AM
 
Location: West Phoenix
769 posts, read 893,166 times
Reputation: 1894
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoss View Post
These mass murder punks want "recognition". So we should stop giving it to them. They are captured at the SCENE, with dozens of witness to their crime. Why can't we just blow off their heads on the spot, hmm? It should be illegal to mention their name, or their crime, or show their picture, forever more. THAT's what would be punks like this should expect. Nothing but a swift end to their worthless lives.
I have been saying this for years.
Back up a wood chipper to the door and feed the scum to it, wounded or dead, then take the chipper to their home and feed everything with their name or photo of them into the chipper, when all that is down, take the chips and burn them at a powerplant, might as well get some use out of them.
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Old 03-27-2014, 07:51 AM
 
195 posts, read 218,710 times
Reputation: 154
that's definitely an improvement. tell the cops to aim for their legs, feed them to the chipper feet first.
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Old 03-27-2014, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,775 posts, read 3,692,509 times
Reputation: 4241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
No...
Oops, sorry, your meaning was clear this morning after sleeping on it. I just misread it last night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
I support your right to hold your position. However guns are not the only deadly weapon that can be possessed in public. Would you consider it of equal value to require that only registered persons can carry knives, or chainsaws, or baseball bats or any other item that under the right circumstances may be used as a deadly weapon? (Remember the scene in Casino where Joe Pesci's character kills the guy with a pen?)
True, but more danger requires more regulation. A passenger vehicle requires basic registration and training. A large commercial truck, capable of being far more deadly in a crash, carries more registration, training, and inspection requirements.

The pen comment brings up comparisons between a sharpened pencil and 1.5" pen knife. Which is more dangerous, vs. which is banned in schools?

Yes, you can kill with a sharpened pencil, or baseball bat (I believe in 2011 there were more deaths from baseball bats than from all types of rifles), or a knife, or a chainsaw. But all those items require that you be within a few feet of the victim. A bullet fired by an obliviot who got scared and thought they could legally fire a few warning shots in the air can kill for miles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Ultimately the statistics show that people who have concealed handgun permits are in general not the people who are a threat to public safety or that you want to actually prohibit carrying weapons, and the people who you want to ensure are prohibited from carrying weapons because they are a threat to public safety, will carry regardless of any prohibitions.
Yes, I fully agree that registration won't stop criminals. If someone is planning on robbing a convenience store or shooting up a crowd there's no way the lack of a concealed carry permit will stop him from shoving the gun in his pocket. My comments on requiring carry permits don't apply to criminals.

I also fully agree that the overwhelmingly vast majority of carry permit holders are law-abiding citizens. I've used that argument myself when advocating for fewer restrictions on where a permit holder may carry.

But I still maintain that, before being allowed to carry a deadly weapon in public, especially a ranged weapon like a firearm, a law-abiding person should be required to undergo training on at least basic gun handling and on when the use of deadly force is legal. My biggest gun-rights fear is that some obliviot sees someone who looks like a [insert stereotypical bad guy here], pulls a gun, and starts panic firing in a crowd. Or someone is confronted by an actual bad guy, pulls a gun, and fires a few "warning shots" that fall into a crowd of grade-schoolers on a field trip three blocks over. I know several people who, while they have the right to defend themselves, their panicky nature and general overblown opinion of their own rights makes me want to keep them as far away from guns as possible. Their ignorance of the law could create momentum in the anti-gun community and cause me to lose my rights.

I acknowledge that no amount of training will fully eliminate all gun accidents (cops shoot innocent people even with all their training), but going with the percentages, a little knowledge goes a long way.

[Back on topic...]
One of the problems with national reciprocity is the vast difference between states in the way they handle weapon carry. Yes, there are large differences between state driving laws where reciprocity is the norm, but there are MASSIVE differences between different states' carry laws. If you can carry without a license in AK, does that mean that AK residents may carry everywhere without a license? Some states with very lax laws allow non-residents to obtain licenses. TN already recognizes other states' licenses, but not for TN residents (TN residents have to get an in-state license to carry in TN). Would national registration require that TN recognize the FL license used by a TN resident, or, now that ALL states allow carry in some form or another, would national registration eliminate non-citizen registration altogether?
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