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Old 05-29-2014, 12:04 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
In the 00 buckshot, are the pellets close in size to the 556 round? Or are they smaller? If they are the same size or a little smaller, would they not be more effective? Because you get a bunch of projectiles hitting you.

What is considered the effective range for buckshot? Lets say you are hunting hog or something. What is the farthest away you can shoot?
A 5.56 round is much more destructive than a single pellet of 00 because at rifle velocities temporary stretch cavity is a legit wounding mechanism. Buckshot on the other hand is slow and round...not nearly as disruptive. However quantity is its own quality.

Pattern your shotgun and load. Distance that it's useful at depends on this and is variable.
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Old 05-29-2014, 12:36 AM
 
369 posts, read 309,165 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
A 5.56 round is much more destructive than a single pellet of 00 because at rifle velocities temporary stretch cavity is a legit wounding mechanism. Buckshot on the other hand is slow and round...not nearly as disruptive. However quantity is its own quality.

Pattern your shotgun and load. Distance that it's useful at depends on this and is variable.
Unless you are using soft points, ballistic tip or hollow points no it isn't. It just goes whizzing right on through. A M855 will pass on through your target like a carbide drill bit does to warm butter. Unless you hit a organ, you are probably better off with a .45 ACP.


That shotgun blast will knock you down and kill you......INSTANTLY!!
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Old 05-30-2014, 09:45 AM
 
2,181 posts, read 2,035,921 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by You Lose View Post
Unless you are using soft points, ballistic tip or hollow points no it isn't. It just goes whizzing right on through. A M855 will pass on through your target like a carbide drill bit does to warm butter. Unless you hit a organ, you are probably better off with a .45 ACP.


That shotgun blast will knock you down and kill you......INSTANTLY!!
5.56 fmj still breaks apart in the target, so long as the bullet is going fast enough. The green tip penetrator ammo is a different story.
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Old 05-30-2014, 11:36 PM
 
854 posts, read 898,201 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by You Lose View Post
Don't forget the new kid on the block.

The Kel-Tec KSG 12.....it's one bad mother#@$%#@!!

KELTEC SHOTGUN PICS - Bing Images
I want one really bad.
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Old 05-30-2014, 11:43 PM
 
854 posts, read 898,201 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
Strongly disagree. Also, I run level IV plate. I don't even have soft armor. Of course, that takes 5.56/.308 out of the running, as well, but my point is, lots of people run plate instead of soft, now days. Also, no, the concussion from the slug on soft armor isn't fun at all, but it's not at all likely to be lethal or require more than an out-patient visit. Cracked ribs is the likely diagnosis, along with bruising and an ugly hematoma.
Ok well maybe not nothing. I think that a slug from a 12 gauge generates more force within 10 yards than even a .308. I have both and I would never use the .308 in the house. I was just going off what I saw at the range, a couple of retired police officers shot a level II vest from about 10 yards and it shot straight through the vest and the pallets behind it. Maybe it was an old vest or something. Oh well just me, I am probably wrong. Seems like that happens a lot on city data. I had also just been reading this forum thread below in which people seemed to think the concussion could do fatal damage in certain situations. Of course you are right with the plate armor, I think that stops just about anything short of a .50 BMG round.

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=608799

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

This test did show both 5.56 x 45 and 7.62 x 39 going straight through the vest and causing deadly damage. I can only imagine what a 168 grain 7.62 x 51 would do. They are saying not to depend on a pistol round or shotgun round to penetrate soft body armor. However they didn't test the higher velocity pistol rounds. Maybe a 10 gauge slug would shoot through level III. Either way I think a slug to the chest from a 12 gauge at point blank range is going to totally incapacitate an attacker.

Last edited by bad apples; 05-31-2014 at 12:01 AM..
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Old 05-31-2014, 12:29 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bad apples View Post
Ok well maybe not nothing. I think that a slug from a 12 gauge generates more force within 10 yards than even a .308. I have both and I would never use the .308 in the house. I was just going off what I saw at the range, a couple of retired police officers shot a level II vest from about 10 yards and it shot straight through the vest and the pallets behind it. Maybe it was an old vest or something. Oh well just me, I am probably wrong. Seems like that happens a lot on city data. I had also just been reading this forum thread below in which people seemed to think the concussion could do fatal damage in certain situations. Of course you are right with the plate armor, I think that stops just about anything short of a .50 BMG round.

12 gauge slugs and soft body armor - AR15.Com Archive

The Box O' Truth #16 - Level IIIA Armor - Page 1

This test did show both 5.56 x 45 and 7.62 x 39 going straight through the vest and causing deadly damage. I can only imagine what a 168 grain 7.62 x 51 would do. They are saying not to depend on a pistol round or shotgun round to penetrate soft body armor. However they didn't test the higher velocity pistol rounds. Maybe a 10 gauge slug would shoot through level III. Either way I think a slug to the chest from a 12 gauge at point blank range is going to totally incapacitate an attacker.
It would not be fun, but I would not take that to the bank as irrevocable truth in every case.

While I currently use ceramic Level IV plates from Velocity Systems, take into account that cheap steel plates that are very effective (especially against things like slugs and larger/slower projectiles) are readily available and...like I said...very cheap!

http://www.ar500armor.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdlXfF6obY0
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Old 05-31-2014, 12:46 AM
 
369 posts, read 309,165 times
Reputation: 439
Quote:
Originally Posted by tofur View Post
5.56 fmj still breaks apart in the target, so long as the bullet is going fast enough. The green tip penetrator ammo is a different story.
You need 2,500 fps or better out of a M855. A 20" barrel is also preferred.....11.5"/14.5" and 16" are a crapshoot.


M855 was/is standard issue. The older 55 grain M193 was designed for 1/12 twist in A-1 profile barrels. It has trouble stabilizing in A-2 1/7 twist barrels. It did fragment much more reliably though.

MK262 and MK318 don't have a problem at all....but locating it can be a challenge in "the afterlife".


I stick to my handloads with Hornady V-Max ballistic tip (MAKES A REAL MESS) or M855. You can even stagger them in a magazine to handle both "punching" and "pancaking".

Don't rely on a V-Max bullet to defeat any substantial barriers......

You only when you have clean shots and want it to "get messy".
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Old 05-31-2014, 12:48 AM
 
369 posts, read 309,165 times
Reputation: 439
Quote:
Originally Posted by bad apples View Post
Ok well maybe not nothing. I think that a slug from a 12 gauge generates more force within 10 yards than even a .308. I have both and I would never use the .308 in the house. I was just going off what I saw at the range, a couple of retired police officers shot a level II vest from about 10 yards and it shot straight through the vest and the pallets behind it. Maybe it was an old vest or something. Oh well just me, I am probably wrong. Seems like that happens a lot on city data. I had also just been reading this forum thread below in which people seemed to think the concussion could do fatal damage in certain situations. Of course you are right with the plate armor, I think that stops just about anything short of a .50 BMG round.

12 gauge slugs and soft body armor - AR15.Com Archive

The Box O' Truth #16 - Level IIIA Armor - Page 1

This test did show both 5.56 x 45 and 7.62 x 39 going straight through the vest and causing deadly damage. I can only imagine what a 168 grain 7.62 x 51 would do. They are saying not to depend on a pistol round or shotgun round to penetrate soft body armor. However they didn't test the higher velocity pistol rounds. Maybe a 10 gauge slug would shoot through level III. Either way I think a slug to the chest from a 12 gauge at point blank range is going to totally incapacitate an attacker.
A 12 gauge slug fired at close range at ANY VEST is either going through it or WILL knock your dick in the dirt.

I double dog dare anyone with the stones to give it a whirl....
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Old 05-31-2014, 01:01 AM
 
369 posts, read 309,165 times
Reputation: 439
^^^^ LMAO



Kick me in the jimmy - YouTube
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Old 05-31-2014, 02:38 AM
Status: "King of the World" (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Itinerant
5,188 posts, read 3,745,742 times
Reputation: 4060
Quote:
Originally Posted by You Lose View Post
A 12 gauge slug fired at close range at ANY VEST is either going through it or WILL knock your dick in the dirt.
On going through...

Not likely
7.62 NATO sectional density is 0.221

1oz slug sectional density is 0.116

If you do not understand why this is important to penetration, you have no seat at the discussion table.

Type III Body Armor Conditioned its V50 is for a 7.62 NATO travelling at 2,780 fps +/- 30 fps

If you mean a .50 Caliber sabot, then that is not a slug, but a 50 caliber bullet.


On knocking you in the dirt...

Knock you no, laws of physics prohibit it unless the person firing the gun is similarly knocked in the dirt (Newtons Third Law).

However that said, would the person still be standing after being shot? No, they'd likely fall down, I know I did when I was hit with a 7.62x39 back in the day, not something I'd like to repeat
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