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Old 05-27-2014, 04:13 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,285 posts, read 10,442,913 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyover_Country View Post
However if he has Rifle Acquisition Syndrome and really wants a .25-06, who are we to blame him? We all like new shiny guns!
Rifle Acquisition Syndrome (RAS) is no laughing matter. RAS affects thousands of gun owners of every walk of life on an annual basis. If you or a loved one has been affected by this condition, seek a qualified arms dealer today. You are not alone, and help is a gun counter away.
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Old 05-27-2014, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Midwest
978 posts, read 1,523,277 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Rifle Acquisition Syndrome (RAS) is no laughing matter. RAS affects thousands of gun owners of every walk of life on an annual basis. If you or a loved one has been affected by this condition, seek a qualified arms dealer today. You are not alone, and help is a gun counter away.
I definitely suffer from RAS. I've actually been trying to clear out some of my rifles. I'll have even more from my grandpa one day.
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
13,388 posts, read 42,701,155 times
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My $.02 - IMHO the 25-06 is pretty similar to the .270 (which could be called a 27-06, but is not) - probably the recoil of a 25-06 with a 120 grain bullet in a similar weight rifle is not much less than a 130 from the .270.

Not understanding why you give the .243 no love. It is the classic "hers" deer rifle caliber.

If you handload, you could load the .270/130g down a bit and probably get recoil down to where she's OK with it.

Getting a stock that fits her is going to be key. Rifles for petite women you have to pay attention to weight and length of pull. To keep rifle weight down yet manage recoil, but still have decent killing power - .243, or 250 Savage if you can find a rifle chambered for it, or maybe that .270 on a .223 case, whatever they are calling that.

If you want to spoil her get a Steyr Scout, either in .308 or 7-08. You can take spacers off the stock till it fits her perfectly. Fair warning, you will want one too, though, once you try it. Jeff Cooper's daughters hunted up a storm with Scouts, and AFIK still do.
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Old 05-28-2014, 07:52 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,798 posts, read 30,025,534 times
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I'm looking for a cheap .243 for my 12 yr old. I built a Grendel AR with hope he could use it but too heavy and too loud to chamber when it comes shooting time. I don't allow the youngsters to carry loaded.
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Old 05-29-2014, 06:42 AM
 
Location: SW MO
656 posts, read 954,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
My $.02 - IMHO the 25-06 is pretty similar to the .270 (which could be called a 27-06, but is not) - probably the recoil of a 25-06 with a 120 grain bullet in a similar weight rifle is not much less than a 130 from the .270.
The .270 isn't called the .27-06 because it isn't. It is actually based on the .30-06's very short-lived and slightly longer-cased predecessor, the .30-03.

Outdoor writer Chuck Hawks has a very good recoil table on his website. A .270 throwing a 130-grain bullet at 3140 fps has 16.5 ft-lbs of recoil out of an 8 lb rifle. An 8 lb .25-06 throws a 120-grain bullet at only 3000 fps so the recoil is a bit less at 12.5 ft-lbs. An 8 lb .30-06 shooting a typical 150 grain factory load at 2910 fps has 17.6 ft-lbs of recoil.

Quote:
Not understanding why you give the .243 no love. It is the classic "hers" deer rifle caliber.
The main issues I hear from people that shoot .243s is that quite a few people accidentally get varmint rounds instead of deer rounds for the rifle and they perform poorly on deer. Also, it's not quite as "forgiving" for marginal shots as a larger rifle would be. It is also classically known as a youth/ladies round and a "serious" hunter wouldn't be caught dead with it (or a .30-30) in the deer woods. Those same "serious hunters" generally have the latest-and-greatest magnum fad cartridge chambered in a rifle topped off with a scope with a 50+ mm objective lens and rarely return to deer camp with anything except their fancy rifle.

Quote:
If you handload, you could load the .270/130g down a bit and probably get recoil down to where she's OK with it.

Getting a stock that fits her is going to be key. Rifles for petite women you have to pay attention to weight and length of pull. To keep rifle weight down yet manage recoil, but still have decent killing power - .243, or 250 Savage
Don't forget rifle weight either. A heavier rifle kicks a noticeably less than a light one and also is easier to hold steady to aim. I'd shoot for at least 8 1/2 pounds for a long-action rifle. My wood-stocked 24" barreled .30-06 weighs every bit of that and is pleasant to shoot. One of my friends has a lightweight, shorter-barreled, plastic-stocked '06 that weighs about 7 pounds and it is not nearly as pleasant to shoot the same exact rounds out of.

Quote:
if you can find a rifle chambered for it, or maybe that .270 on a .223 case, whatever they are calling that.
That's the 6.8 SPC. It's not actually based on the .223 (based on the larger-diameter .30 Remington) but it's the same overall length as a .223 round. Remington had the Model 7 bolt-action chambered in 6.8 SPC for a short period of time but otherwise it's pretty much an AR-15 round. That's not surprising since that round was expressly designed to provide AR-15 shooters with a non-proprietary round that works with standard AR parts but could reliably take a deer-sized animal with a thorax shot.
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Old 05-29-2014, 07:14 AM
 
1,176 posts, read 1,896,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by attrapereves View Post
Anyone own or shot both a 270 and 25-06. I've got a 270, but am thinking of picking up a 25-06. How does the recoil compare?
The recoil impulse of a .25-06 is significantly less than a .270. There are ways to quantify free recoil, but numbers on a page don't really tell the whole story IMO. To me, the .25-06 is below the flinch threshold for just about anyone old/big enough to shoot a full sized rifle. When I was teaching my wife to shoot (who had seen me get a nice scope bite while shooting a .375 H&H and was very concerned about recoil) I had her stand about 20 yards from our berm, shoulder the .25-06 and shoot a couple of 100 grain CoreLokt rounds into the berm without putting her cheek on the stock just so she could get a feel for the recoil in a non-intimidating way. She's not very big or particularly strong, but after the first shot she said "Oh, that's not bad at all" and all that fear and anticipation went out the window.

While I find the .270 recoil to be pretty mild, it's enough to make some people flinch. The .25-06 isn't likely to make anyone flinch unless they are REALLY sensitive.

Also, the .277 bullet seated in a .223 case is a wildcat that has come to be known as the .277 Wolverine. The idea is that the barrel would be the only non-standard part and it should have the same appeal as the .300 BO in that regard and would probably be a more serviceable hunting round that pushes a light-for-caliber .277 bullet to about 2600 fps.
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Old 05-29-2014, 08:47 AM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,285 posts, read 10,442,913 times
Reputation: 13239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyover_Country View Post

The main issues I hear from people that shoot .243s is that quite a few people accidentally get varmint rounds instead of deer rounds for the rifle and they perform poorly on deer. Also, it's not quite as "forgiving" for marginal shots as a larger rifle would be. It is also classically known as a youth/ladies round and a "serious" hunter wouldn't be caught dead with it (or a .30-30) in the deer woods. Those same "serious hunters" generally have the latest-and-greatest magnum fad cartridge chambered in a rifle topped off with a scope with a 50+ mm objective lens and rarely return to deer camp with anything except their fancy rifle.
If people are down on the .243 because they are using varmint rounds for deer, maybe the .243 is not the real problem.

It's a good point you make about some of the sentiments regarding the .243. I recently bought one and did a lot of research before finalizing my decision. I have never seen a cartridge so polarizing. It runs the spectrum of those who have absolutely no use for it whatsoever to those who won't shoot anything else. I personally would use it only on deer, but I know some people go after black bears with it. I bought the .243 because my wife wanted a deer rifle, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it myself. Then again, I'm new to hunting and hardly consider myself a "serious" hunter . It sounds like the .25-06 may have been a decent fit as well. I suppose it's never too late for another rifle.
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Old 05-29-2014, 09:53 AM
 
Location: SW MO
656 posts, read 954,648 times
Reputation: 673
Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
If people are down on the .243 because they are using varmint rounds for deer, maybe the .243 is not the real problem.
I have a hunch it's the same problem that led to the "lack of performance on marginal shots" as well. A poor shooter who can't even pick the correct bullets for the game is going to do poorly no matter what rifle you put in their hands. They're the same ones that would pencil through deer with 200 grain super-premium controlled expansion moose bullets out of the latest-and-greatest .30 caliber magnum if they even hit the deer. "If it's good enough for a moose, it'll REALLY kill a deer!" Nope, doesn't work that way...

Quote:
It's a good point you make about some of the sentiments regarding the .243. I recently bought one and did a lot of research before finalizing my decision. I have never seen a cartridge so polarizing. It runs the spectrum of those who have absolutely no use for it whatsoever to those who won't shoot anything else. I personally would use it only on deer, but I know some people go after black bears with it. I bought the .243 because my wife wanted a deer rifle, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it myself. Then again, I'm new to hunting and hardly consider myself a "serious" hunter .
The .243's polarization pales in comparison to the fast centerfire .22s, especially the .223. Most of the guys who discuss shooting .223s at deer say they shoot them in the head/neck and fire the round out of an AR-15. This dredges up pretty well all of the debates in hunting- how much rifle is enough, where you should shoot the deer, and with a healthy dose of "black rifles" thrown in there too. It touches pretty well all of the third rails in hunting other than baiting.

Quote:
It sounds like the .25-06 may have been a decent fit as well. I suppose it's never too late for another rifle.
It's never too late for another rifle I'd try to get something considerably different from your other rifles, though. If you have a .243 in a bolt rifle and then some other long-action cartridge like a .270 or .30-06, look at getting something "more different" like a lever-action rifle or a rifle shooting a medium or large-bore cartridge. Shooting a .35 Remington out of a lever-action rifle will be a lot different than shooting a bolt gun, and shooting a .45-70 out of anything will be a lot different than any of the above. Ooh, and don't forget plinking guns bigger than a .22 either. Lots of people have fun shooting cheap .223s, 9 mms, or 7.62x39s out of semi-auto rifles. Ditto with various revolver cartridges like .38s and .44-40s out of lever guns. Lots of fun, not much recoil or cost but those rifles are "more gun" than a .22 rimfire.

The one thing you want to avoid is slug guns as they are no fun at all. They look neat but if you think a .30-06 kicks, try firing 12-gauge hunting (sabot) slug out of a stubby-barreled slug gun. I've been there, done that, and gotten the scars to prove it. You also pay the equivalent of at least $40/box for the "privilege" as well.
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Old 05-29-2014, 10:54 AM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,285 posts, read 10,442,913 times
Reputation: 13239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyover_Country View Post
The .243's polarization pales in comparison to the fast centerfire .22s, especially the .223. Most of the guys who discuss shooting .223s at deer say they shoot them in the head/neck and fire the round out of an AR-15. This dredges up pretty well all of the debates in hunting- how much rifle is enough, where you should shoot the deer, and with a healthy dose of "black rifles" thrown in there too. It touches pretty well all of the third rails in hunting other than baiting.
In most states the .243 is the minimum caliber for legally hunting deer. In my mind this completely preempts the debates on the .223.

I am curious what people think of using the AR platform for deer hunting, though. It doesn't seem very sporting to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyover_Country View Post
It's never too late for another rifle I'd try to get something considerably different from your other rifles, though. If you have a .243 in a bolt rifle and then some other long-action cartridge like a .270 or .30-06, look at getting something "more different" like a lever-action rifle or a rifle shooting a medium or large-bore cartridge. Shooting a .35 Remington out of a lever-action rifle will be a lot different than shooting a bolt gun, and shooting a .45-70 out of anything will be a lot different than any of the above. Ooh, and don't forget plinking guns bigger than a .22 either. Lots of people have fun shooting cheap .223s, 9 mms, or 7.62x39s out of semi-auto rifles. Ditto with various revolver cartridges like .38s and .44-40s out of lever guns. Lots of fun, not much recoil or cost but those rifles are "more gun" than a .22 rimfire.
I already have a .30-06 and love it. I am not a big fan of lever guns, but I definitely see the value in the point you are making. It's fun to have options. I have 3 bold action rifles (one is a .22 magnum and the other the afore mentioned .243 and .30-06) as well as an AR. I have a few handguns and shotguns as well, but am always looking to add something new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyover_Country View Post
The one thing you want to avoid is slug guns as they are no fun at all. They look neat but if you think a .30-06 kicks, try firing 12-gauge hunting (sabot) slug out of a stubby-barreled slug gun. I've been there, done that, and gotten the scars to prove it. You also pay the equivalent of at least $40/box for the "privilege" as well.
I've fired 12 gauge slugs before, but out of a full-legth barrel. I think the kick from my .30-06 is actually a little more stout.
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Old 05-29-2014, 12:28 PM
 
Location: SW MO
656 posts, read 954,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
In most states the .243 is the minimum caliber for legally hunting deer. In my mind this completely preempts the debates on the .223.
There are no specific caliber restrictions for deer rifles in any of the states I have hunted in, namely MO and SD. The Missouri regs merely require a non-muzzleloading weapon be centerfire and shoot expanding ammunition. You could use a .25 ACP or any other woefully underpowered round you want as long as it is not rimfire. SD mandates 1000 ft-lb muzzle energy from a shoulder-fired rifle and 500 ft-lb from a handgun from "factory ammunition." A .223 makes about 1300 ft-lb at the muzzle so it is certainly legal, as is a .204 Ruger (1150 ft-lb.) The .17 Remington with a 30-grain bullet barely misses the mark by 50 ft-lb. The only specific caliber restrictions are for muzzleloaders and shotguns. MO bans anything less than .40 and SD bans anything less than .44 for muzzleloaders. MO bans shotguns smaller than 20 gauge where SD makes no such restriction but the energy requirement bans .410 gauge slugs unless fired from a Taurus Judge or similar handgun (muzzle energy of around 650 ft-lb.)

Quote:
I am curious what people think of using the AR platform for deer hunting, though. It doesn't seem very sporting to me.
The AR platform is a gas-operated semi-automatic rifle just like my Dad's Remington 7400 or a Browning BAR. I don't see anything specifically unsporting with a semiautomatic rifle. The biggest hangup that a lot of people have with the AR is it looks "tactical" while the Remington 740/7400/750 and BAR don't, especially with wood stocks. My biggest hangups with the AR-15 (specifically NOT the AR-10) are that at least a few people who have them are the "tactical mall ninja wannabes" and that many people only have a .223 upper. The mall ninja wannabes just spray bullets from cheap steel-cased milsurp ammunition at their target. I've shot at ranges with these folks and as a general rule they shoot from the 25-50 yard benches and "magazine dump," often several 30 round magazines in quick succession. This is grossly inappropriate for deer hunting and I've heard gunshots in the distance when hunting that sure sounded similar. The .223 in my observations is not powerful enough to routinely cleanly harvest deer in the hands of the average hunter. You'd need a head shot to do so as the round is widely reported to not generally be powerful enough to have a high probability of a one-shot kill an adult deer shot in the thorax. Clean kills with head shots mean you need to be an excellent shot and pick your (close-range) shots very carefully. That's not most deer hunters.

Note that these criticisms do not apply to the AR-10 because that much more expensive short-action rifle generally chambered in .308 is generally too expensive for the mall ninjas and usually comes chambered in a round which has no question of being powerful enough for deer hunting. I'd even exempt the AR-15s chambered in something other than .223, 7.62x39, or handgun rounds from the above. Anybody with the knowledge to get a larger, more suitable round like the 6.8 SPC that isn't dirt cheap to spray around has a much better chance of knowing what they are doing for hunting than the mall ninjas.

Quote:
I already have a .30-06 and love it. I am not a big fan of lever guns, but I definitely see the value in the point you are making. It's fun to have options. I have 3 bold action rifles (one is a .22 magnum and the other the afore mentioned .243 and .30-06) as well as an AR. I have a few handguns and shotguns as well, but am always looking to add something new.
I'd look at a lever gun or a large-bore rifle like the .45-70 if I were in your shoes. Either that or spend the "new gun" money on more ammunition. Neither of those is the wrong answer

Quote:
I've fired 12 gauge slugs before, but out of a full-legth barrel. I think the kick from my .30-06 is actually a little more stout.
Saboted hunting slugs have a lot more recoil than the old rifled slugs you'd shoot from a duck gun as they are quite a bit more powerful and a stubby rifled barrel is significantly lighter than a full-length smoothbore shot barrel.
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