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Old 05-29-2014, 01:23 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,289 posts, read 10,446,371 times
Reputation: 13239

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyover_Country View Post

The AR platform is a gas-operated semi-automatic rifle just like my Dad's Remington 7400 or a Browning BAR. I don't see anything specifically unsporting with a semiautomatic rifle. The biggest hangup that a lot of people have with the AR is it looks "tactical" while the Remington 740/7400/750 and BAR don't, especially with wood stocks. My biggest hangups with the AR-15 (specifically NOT the AR-10) are that at least a few people who have them are the "tactical mall ninja wannabes" and that many people only have a .223 upper. The mall ninja wannabes just spray bullets from cheap steel-cased milsurp ammunition at their target. I've shot at ranges with these folks and as a general rule they shoot from the 25-50 yard benches and "magazine dump," often several 30 round magazines in quick succession. This is grossly inappropriate for deer hunting and I've heard gunshots in the distance when hunting that sure sounded similar. The .223 in my observations is not powerful enough to routinely cleanly harvest deer in the hands of the average hunter. You'd need a head shot to do so as the round is widely reported to not generally be powerful enough to have a high probability of a one-shot kill an adult deer shot in the thorax. Clean kills with head shots mean you need to be an excellent shot and pick your (close-range) shots very carefully. That's not most deer hunters.

Note that these criticisms do not apply to the AR-10 because that much more expensive short-action rifle generally chambered in .308 is generally too expensive for the mall ninjas and usually comes chambered in a round which has no question of being powerful enough for deer hunting. I'd even exempt the AR-15s chambered in something other than .223, 7.62x39, or handgun rounds from the above. Anybody with the knowledge to get a larger, more suitable round like the 6.8 SPC that isn't dirt cheap to spray around has a much better chance of knowing what they are doing for hunting than the mall ninjas.
I should have clarified, it's not the use of the SA that I consider unsportsmanlike. I am aware of other weapons people use for hunting that are SA, such as the models you mentioned as well as some shotguns. But the capacity is where I consider it a breech of good sportsmanship, and for the reasons you mentioned. My hunting rifles carry 4 rounds. If I can't get it done with 4 rounds then it's one in the books for that buck I just lost. It's the "spray and pray" approach to hunting with a 30 round magazine that I object. Note: This is not the same as objecting to general ownership of 30 round magazines; I own several myself. I just don't use them for hunting. I also don't care about the "tactical" appearance of the gun. But I feel a hunter using such a platform should be using a AR-10 in .308 or .243 and with a magazine plugged at 4 rounds.
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Old 05-30-2014, 01:54 PM
 
919 posts, read 1,667,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by attrapereves View Post
Anyone own or shot both a 270 and 25-06. I've got a 270, but am thinking of picking up a 25-06. How does the recoil compare?
you can go online to do a recoil calculation on handloader.com . As for starting a women out on the 25 or 270 that would be a big mistake, even with reduced loads. But a 243, will handle anything she would hunt and with reduced loads is very mild for target shooting. First and foremost remember who is shooting this rifle (NOT YOU) My girl friend has the new lady savage, designed for a women's longer neck and general build. Also she does NOT shoot past 200 yards, off hand is kept under 75yards. Let your wife start slow and easy, let her tell you when she wants to try more gun. Just because you can handle the gun doesn't mean she can!
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Old 05-30-2014, 02:36 PM
 
Location: SW MO
656 posts, read 954,871 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark6052 View Post
you can go online to do a recoil calculation on handloader.com.
You can also just do it by hand as it's simple. KE = 1/2mv^2 at both ends of the gun and remember to include the weight of the combusted powder with the "coming out of the end of the gun" half of the equation and assume its speed is 4000 fps.

Quote:
As for starting a women out on the 25 or 270 that would be a big mistake, even with reduced loads. But a 243, will handle anything she would hunt and with reduced loads is very mild for target shooting. First and foremost remember who is shooting this rifle (NOT YOU) My girl friend has the new lady savage, designed for a women's longer neck and general build. Also she does NOT shoot past 200 yards, off hand is kept under 75yards. Let your wife start slow and easy, let her tell you when she wants to try more gun. Just because you can handle the gun doesn't mean she can!
Starting out with something less than a .270 and not shooting past 200 yards is a good idea for everybody. Start out with a .22 rimfire and then move to light-kicking rounds such as a .223, .243, or a lightly-loaded .270 or .30-06 is a great idea for any shooter. The first "full-power" single-projectile centerfire round I fired was a 600 grain Brenneke attached-wad slug out of a 12-gauge stubby-barreled slug gun that ended up with me in the ED getting 13 stitches after the first shot. It was a good thing I already loved to shoot or I probably would have never picked up another gun again. I later bought a .30-06 and shot many hundreds of 150 grain rounds to eventually rid myself of the marked flinch I got from shooting that damned slug gun. I still have to pull the trigger on an empty chamber for that first "shot" during target practice and remind myself I won't get walloped when a live round goes off even today.
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Old 05-30-2014, 06:36 PM
 
5,221 posts, read 2,377,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyover_Country View Post
You can also just do it by hand as it's simple. KE = 1/2mv^2 at both ends of the gun and remember to include the weight of the combusted powder with the "coming out of the end of the gun" half of the equation and assume its speed is 4000 fps.
Physics isn't my strong suit, but I'm pretty sure that felt recoil is much more a function of momentum rather than KE.
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Old 05-31-2014, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Midwest
978 posts, read 1,523,768 times
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I didn't care for 243 as it has a weird pressure curve for handloading. Also, it's just barely adequate for deer, and can be overkill as a varmint cartridge.
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Old 05-31-2014, 09:11 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 19 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,289 posts, read 10,446,371 times
Reputation: 13239
Quote:
Originally Posted by attrapereves View Post
I didn't care for 243 as it has a weird pressure curve for handloading. Also, it's just barely adequate for deer, and can be overkill as a varmint cartridge.
I am a marginally good shooter. I am better with a pistol than a rifle, but I feel if I had the time and money for ammo to commit to more practice time with the rifle I would be well above average. With this said, I am 100% confident in my ability to drop a deer with a .243. But I think it is important to share the context in which that shot is likely to be taken.

I live in Virginia and it is heavily wooded out here. A shot as far as 100 yards is unlikely here. Also, while we get some pretty big deer here, I think the average white tail specimen seems a little smaller here than other places I've seen them. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:09 AM
 
5,221 posts, read 2,377,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by attrapereves View Post
I didn't care for 243 as it has a weird pressure curve for handloading
What does this mean?
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Old 06-01-2014, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Midwest
978 posts, read 1,523,768 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
What does this mean?
That pressures seem to fluctuate and can go from safe to unsafe quickly.
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Old 06-01-2014, 12:09 PM
 
5,221 posts, read 2,377,031 times
Reputation: 5111
Quote:
Originally Posted by attrapereves View Post
That pressures seem to fluctuate and can go from safe to unsafe quickly.
What is it about the .243 that would cause this to happen, when it doesn't seem to be the case in the parent case, .308?
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Old 06-01-2014, 02:14 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,034,103 times
Reputation: 17687
AR15 makes a great hunting rifle in .264, 6.8 or .30ar for Deer sized game. Just like the 7400 they are LOUD to load and you will be announcing Deer season is open upon racking a round.
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