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Old 07-08-2014, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
I live in Wyoming on over 1000 acres of land. I have steers and horses on my property and I have seen wolves and other dangerous animals on my property.
I had forgotten about the wolf population making a comeback due to the dogooders. An AR 10 should do those critters some good, IMO, what with the long distances you guys have to shoot.

An AR 15 will suffice down here in the brush country where shorter range shootin' is the order of the day, but the local pests are mainly feral hogs & coyotes.
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Old 07-08-2014, 04:31 PM
 
5,304 posts, read 2,444,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
not always, I did watch a IDPA match about 4 years ago and watched a revolver guy reload in under a second using speed loaders, at least on the reloading part of your post.
Sure, the Jerry Miculek's of the world can do that, but they are what, three std. deviations away from the mean? For the vast overwhelming majority of shooters, what I posted is completely accurate.
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Old 07-08-2014, 04:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HB2HSV View Post
I am old school. We call the thing that holds bullets "clip". Personally, a magazine is something that I read or look at the pictures.
Old school or not, it has never been correct to call a magazine a clip. They are not now, nor have they ever been, the same thing.
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Old 07-08-2014, 04:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
And yet...one is still not wrong for carrying a 5-shot revolver. A few posters have rightly mentioned their brain being the best weapon available. Part of this involves keeping yourself out of situations where you are likely to need to use your conceal carry weapon. If we truly believe this, and recognizing the likelihood of being in a confrontation involving a firearm is exceedingly low for the average and law abiding citizen, we can rightly conclude a 5-shot double action revolver is a sufficient tool for conceal carry.

Comparing conceal carry scenarios to competitive shooting matches is a complete non-starter.
Not at all. While the tactics may be different, the shooting skills are the same. Both the tactical gun games and self defense shooting require the same following shooting skill set:

Quote:
One must be able to fire multiple rounds on (possibly) multiple targets, quickly and accurately, from a variety of positions, using a sufficiently powerful round.
If you can't do it in competition, it is highly unlikely that you will magically be able to do it in a self defense situation.

Last edited by TaxPhd; 07-08-2014 at 04:39 PM.. Reason: Spelling
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Old 07-08-2014, 05:28 PM
 
4,786 posts, read 8,449,175 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
Old school or not, it has never been correct to call a magazine a clip. They are not now, nor have they ever been, the same thing.
Says you?

I will stick with my nomenclature, thank you.
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Old 07-08-2014, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,372 posts, read 10,562,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
Not at all. While the tactics may be different, the shooting skills are the same. Both the tactical gun games and self defense shooting require the same following shooting skill set:

If you can't do it in competition, it is highly unlikely that you will magically be able to do it in a self defense situation.
But a self defense scenario is not a competition, even if the skill set is similar. You don't need to be in a competition to train effectively. And you can train effectively with any weapon you choose to carry, be it a revolver or semi-auto pistol. A carrier SHOULD train effectively with the weapon of his/her choosing. This isn't a matter of right or wrong choices. It's a matter of a carrier making the right weapon selection for himself or herself. I'll pit a carrier who has effectively trained with a 5-shot revolver over someone carrying a pistol just about every time.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:14 AM
 
5,304 posts, read 2,444,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HB2HSV View Post
Says you?

I will stick with my nomenclature, thank you.
One of the nice things about a fully developed language like English is that words have meaning. In the context of firearms, "magazine" and "clip" have always meant different things. Sorry that you don't understand that.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:29 AM
 
5,304 posts, read 2,444,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
But a self defense scenario is not a competition, even if the skill set is similar.
Agreed. And my post that you quoted acknowledged that.

Quote:
You don't need to be in a competition to train effectively.
You're right. But testing your skills in a competitive environment is a very good way to evaluate those skills. I've been shooting IPSC/USPSA since 1984, and I can't tell you the number of times LEO/Military guys have shown up at a match, with the attitude of "I carry a gun for a living. OF COURSE I know how to shoot at a high level." In the vast majority of instances, their "skills" are found lacking, and they get destroyed in the match. Even worse are the guys that "train" but reject the competitions because "they just aren't realistic." When and if they finally shoot a match, their results are abysmal.

Quote:
And you can train effectively with any weapon you choose to carry, be it a revolver or semi-auto pistol. A carrier SHOULD train effectively with the weapon of his/her choosing. This isn't a matter of right or wrong choices. It's a matter of a carrier making the right weapon selection for himself or herself.
I agree 100%. And I never said anything contrary to this.

Quote:
I'll pit a carrier who has effectively trained with a 5-shot revolver over someone carrying a pistol just about every time.
In the above sentence, did you mean to say "someone carrying a pistol without training" or are you arguing that ceteris paribus, someone with a 5 shot revolver will be superior to someone with a semi-auto?
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:13 AM
 
1,198 posts, read 921,845 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post

Point #1 To Consider:
Yeah, semi-auto's are compact, thinner, lighter, and easier to carry, they often hold a few more rounds, they are stylish and just downright cool! But, in a real self defense application, I see NO advantage whatsoever to a semi-auto. First, you probably aren't going to need more rounds then what a revolver can carry in your average self defense scenerio. It's not as if you're going to be in a gun fight, and if you are cornered by more than one or two thugs with their own guns, you probably aren't going to make it out alive anyway, even if you had 100 rounds at your disposal.
Thinner, lighter, and easier to carry means that one is more likely to carry, and the best gun to have in a bad situation is any gun. I love a good snub-nose, but outside of an NAA minnie revolver even the most concealable revolvers are hard to conceal in a pair of shorts and a t-shirt. My Ruger LCP is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post

Point #2 To Consider
Secondly, semi-auto's are less reliable. Yeah, the differences are minimal, but they are there. There is no such thing 100% reliable ammunition. Even though the fail rate is almost nill on centerfire rounds, it still exists and as long as it exists, it counts. You pull the trigger to a semi-auto and nothing happens, you better hope you have the ability to be able to rack the slide and chamber anoither round. In a high stress situation, this may prove more difficult than you think. You pull the trigger to a revolver and nothing happens? Simple.... you just pull the trigger again and it goes BOOM!
All of my double action autos will allow me to repeatably strike the round in the chamber until it goes boom. I personally have never had a high quality factory center-fire round fail to go boom after a second strike, and I've been shooting for over 35 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post

Point #3 To Consider
Third, with a semi-auto you have to worry about jams, FTC's, and FTE's.... Again, you better hope you have the ability to clear any malfunction that might occur. None of these problems exist with a revolver. It doesn't need to eject a shell casing in order to put another round in the chamber. Yes, a revolver might jam or fail to cycle the cylinder, but if that happens, it's going to be an internal problem rather than a user error caused by limp-wristing or defective ammo and I feel more comfortable with my odds with a revolver.
My Glock 17 has never jammed or misfired, and I've literally put thousands of rounds through it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
Point #4 To Consider
Fourth, if you find yourself in a situation where you have to use your firearm for self defense, there's a good chance that you've been knocked to the ground and have a thug on top of you. If you pull that semi-auto, and the thug is able to grab that slide and push it back { otherwise known as "knocked out of battery"} you're not going to be able to fire and you're gonna be in trouble..... Yes, it's true that revolvers aren't completely immune to this. A thug could grab hold of the cylinder and keep it from rotating, but that's a lot harder tio do and be successful at.
is it?
Also, a bad guy could just as easily block the hammer on most revolvers

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
So, when I was considering what type of firearm to carry, I saw absolutely no advantages to carrying a semi-auto whatsoever over a revolver, at least none where it counted, and in fact, I saw more disadvantages with semi-auto's. So that leaves me with the question, why do so many people carry them? Do you carry? If so, please tell me why you carry the weapon you carry.

Making The Case For Compact Revolvers.....

Thanks for reading.
easier to carry= more likely to carry

Less likely to snag= I would rather draw a smooth plastic gun with no snags if someone was on top of me

more accurate= I can't double tap someone center mass from 50 ft away with a concealable revolver(maybe you can?)

holds more ammo= I'm sorry, but if I got into a shootout with some gang-banger, or I was caught up in the middle of a mass shooting, I would rather have 18 rounds than 5.

won't blind you in the dark= ever shot a snubbi at night? The do make special ammo for this, but I would rather avoid the whole scenario

less recoil=If I feel the need to shoot someone because my life is in danger, I'm shooting more than once. This goes back to accuracy

easier to reload= In a SHTF situation, I would rather carry a couple extra clips in my pocket than a few speedloaders.

cheaper ammo= more practice

Better ammo selection= There are far more choices of defense ammo for 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 acp, than there are for .38 or .357

More stopping power= most concealable revolvers are designed for .38 +p ammo, which is not as powerful as the top 9mm, 40 S&W, or 45ACP rounds available. Yes, .357 is a beast, but I've shot a .357 snubbi multiple times and NO THANKS!
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Old 07-09-2014, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,372 posts, read 10,562,677 times
Reputation: 13395
Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
You're right. But testing your skills in a competitive environment is a very good way to evaluate those skills. I've been shooting IPSC/USPSA since 1984, and I can't tell you the number of times LEO/Military guys have shown up at a match, with the attitude of "I carry a gun for a living. OF COURSE I know how to shoot at a high level." In the vast majority of instances, their "skills" are found lacking, and they get destroyed in the match. Even worse are the guys that "train" but reject the competitions because "they just aren't realistic." When and if they finally shoot a match, their results are abysmal.
Likewise I would be willing to argue some of those military/LEO who have real life experience in combat marksmanship but would perform poorly at these matches would be better suited to survive a confrontational self defense scenario than one whose experience is limited to competitive matches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
In the above sentence, did you mean to say "someone carrying a pistol without training" or are you arguing that ceteris paribus, someone with a 5 shot revolver will be superior to someone with a semi-auto?
Not even carrying a pistol "without training" but with average training and experience compared to a highly trained and experienced carrier with a revolver. Ceteris paribus I believe a SA generally a superior weapon, but reality rarely (read: NEVER) works like an experimental model. With reality in mind, the idea of two evenly matched shooters going head to head in a self defense scenario is so unlikely as to be rendered mute for any other purpose beyond hypothetical debate. There will always be some factor or element at play that renders the idea of "ceteris parabis" invalid in a practical sense.

You may not have said anything contrary to the points I made. As a whole I think you and I would agree with more on this subject than disagree. With that said, I made my points to stress training and experience are primary factors, more so than a given weapon of choice. I believe you would agree with this reasoning, though it was not stressed as deliberately in your posts because you were citing competitive matches as a rationale for choosing a SA over a revolver. For a competitive match, this probably makes a lot of sense. For a personal choice on carry for self defense, it may not necessarily be as great a factor, and indeed should not be a greater factor than one training on the weapon he/she has chosen.

Last edited by iknowftbll; 07-09-2014 at 11:25 AM..
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