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Old 08-06-2014, 06:06 AM
 
19,702 posts, read 10,971,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
Well, at least consider training against a multiple target engagement. It could help prevent target fixation.
Presuming all the bad guys are in front of you and none is smart enough to hold back to watch for armed reactors.

Presuming you can instantly and accurately distinguish between the bad guys with guns and the other guys like you with guns, and they can identify you as well. (Silly me! Bad guys with guns are the ones wearing shirts with concentric circles and standing bolt upright... just like at the range.)

Presuming you have clear shots of all the bad guys and there aren't screaming, hysterical innocents in the way.

Presuming you've gotten your own family safely out of the range of danger and aren't drawing fire in their direction.

Frankly, getting my family out of danger is my sole intention in such a situation. My purpose for being armed is to provide them with a covered retreat.

Last edited by Ralph_Kirk; 08-06-2014 at 06:40 AM..
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Presuming all the bad guys are in front of you and none is smart enough to hold back to watch for armed reactors.

Presuming you can instantly and accurately distinguish between the bad guys with guns and the other guys like you with guns, and they can identify you as well. (Silly me! Bad guys with guns are the ones wearing shirts with concentric circles and standing bolt upright... just like at the range.)

Presuming you have clear shots of all the bad guys and there aren't screaming, hysterical innocents in the way.

Presuming you've gotten your own family safely out of the range of danger and aren't drawing fire in their direction.

Frankly, getting my family out of danger is my sole intention in such a situation. My purpose for being armed is to provide them with a covered retreat.
You never heard of Stand Your Ground or Castle Doctrine laws. They say nothing about "a retreat". In fact, that is often the last thing you want to do. Run with your back open towards the perps. Don't worry, they'll be sure to chase you and hunt you down, then put one in your back for your trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
Point 1: I've been trained to carry a minimal of three magazines and I always do.

Point 2: If the ammo fails, eject the round, move to the next. If the ammo fails a lot, drop the mag, move to the next.

Point 3: On jams, clear it and carry on which may include dropping the mag and going to the next.

Point 4: Well let's just say between training on how fast an assailant can cross ground and my own martial arts training, that scenario is bound to turn up very interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
You're talking about this in the context of a gun fight..... The vast majority of us will never have to use our carry weapons for a self defense situation, let alone a gun fight.

Most self defense situations are gong to be over and done with in a matter of seconds, there aren't going to be any droppings of the mag and moving to the next.....
Great advice, if you don't prepare for the unexpected, you are signing your death certificate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
About the "majority of us"......true and I hope I'm in that majority. I recall once where I was looking at a concealed holster and commented to the salesman how it didn't provide for a spare magazine.

"You're a civilian. If you need a second magazine, you're in the wrong gun fight."

QUITE FRANKLY, I hope I'm never in any gun fight.

But.....in the event it might come to that, then I train for multiple target engagements, of covering multiple targets in the visual range, of coming up for a window of fire and then ducking back under cover, of having the energy (or at least using it up), to go through a 3 magazine, 31 round engagement, of keeping track of my rounds so it's an automatic mental process and being ready to pull magazine 2, 3 from my shoulder holster, and so forth.

Finally, just as an aside. You know one of the advantages of using a shoulder holster? When you are on the can, you aren't disarmed.
Good advice again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
I've noticed that there are always a few people who carry as if they plan on taking a walk through Afghanistan, carrying two or even sometimes 3 firearms at once, and carrying multiple magazines. I don't judge anyone for doing that. It's not my place to do so, but I would venture to say that the majority of people who carry do not have all that firepower on them. Personally, I just don't think it's necessary. It's overkill, and the cost to benefit ratio just doesn't make sense. If I was a cop, or worked as a body guard, or was otherwise in a position that may require me to go on the offensive, then I could understand. But just going about my daily life? Too much of an { unnecessary } burden, YMMV

I'll be carrying IWB { if I ever get my holster } and I won't be disarmed on the can either. I'll just take my firearm and put it in my underwear. That also keeps you from forgetting your firearm in the stall { believe it or not, it happens }
You'll die quick, no need to think otherwise. This isn't the 1950's anymore. Thugs murder cab drivers for less than $5 in their wallet without batting an eye.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
Well, at least consider training against a multiple target engagement. It could help prevent target fixation.
Yep!
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Old 08-06-2014, 07:56 PM
 
19,702 posts, read 10,971,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Know View Post
You never heard of Stand Your Ground or Castle Doctrine laws. They say nothing about "a retreat". In fact, that is often the last thing you want to do. Run with your back open towards the perps. Don't worry, they'll be sure to chase you and hunt you down, then put one in your back for your trouble.
An armed retreat is not "run with your back open towards the perps."

So you're standing your ground, bobbing and weaving incoming rounds from multiple assailants (who didn't even notice you until you started drawing their fire). You've emptied two magazines, which means there is a lot of lead in the air... and your little girl who was sitting beside you is doing what? Catching the rounds that miss you?

Real world tactics, if you're caught by surprise in a public place with your family, you get them the hell out.
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Old 08-06-2014, 08:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
An armed retreat is not "run with your back open towards the perps."

So you're standing your ground, bobbing and weaving incoming rounds from multiple assailants (who didn't even notice you until you started drawing their fire). You've emptied two magazines, which means there is a lot of lead in the air... and your little girl who was sitting beside you is doing what? Catching the rounds that miss you?

Real world tactics, if you're caught by surprise in a public place with your family, you get them the hell out.
Not to brag on myself, but, if the "perp/s" aren't hit and down within the first 3 (each) rounds fired, I've seriously failed. I don't play games, and I don't hold hands. When my weapon comes out of the holster, someone will die. They can see it in my eyes, my body language and in my soul. Could mean they will stop shooting or not shoot at all and run. Good, they should...they WILL die!!

I don't have children, I'll make sure any and ALL of yours make it though. I have nothing to lose.
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Old 08-06-2014, 08:41 PM
 
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That brings up a point not previously mentioned. It's a mental game as much as the rest. If you draw and your arms and hands are trembling with fear, the perp/s can sense that. He won't shoot me, he doesn't have the stones. Look at him, he's nervous as a virgin prom queen in the back parking lot.

If you come out with lightning fast draw speed with a "serious" weapon of excellent quality, known reliability and accuracy...they take notice. They also notice you are not shaken up, you are abnormally calm and well prepared. You fired in excess of 200 rounds a week honing your skills.

The smart man won't feel like dying today/night.
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Old 08-06-2014, 10:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
Oh, come on. Cut him some slack. He "knows tactical" and if he draws his gun, someone dies. He's like a modern day Samurai.

(Note the prominent use of the winking smiley.)
What other reason does one unholster their weapon for? To scare someone?

It better be for a damn good reason or keep it in the holster.
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Old 08-06-2014, 10:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
not always, I did watch a IDPA match about 4 years ago and watched a revolver guy reload in under a second using speed loaders, at least on the reloading part of your post.
I saw something more amazing than that. He also set a world record. It's clearly not the norm. He sleeps with it under his pillow and lives with it like Jimi Hendrix did with his guitar.





World Record 12 Shots In Under 3 Seconds - YouTube
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Old 08-06-2014, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
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One of the things about a three magazine training engagement, in case others didn't see it, is that one is in a firing stance and environment, using up the energy..............that they might consume in reality in a one magazine engagement.

It is very hard to simulate, get close to reality in training, especially when resources are limited.

I think the closest I came to it was a professional laser trainer in the late 80's. I was Navy, given an M9, for searching a drug boat. In any situation, no one wants to be shot and besides, my unit's pride was on the line as the Marines were there as well.

I went around corner after corner with the Beretta in a two handed grip. In the end, there was the smuggler, I got off one shot, center of mass into the panel he was hiding behind, but it was scored that he got me because the panel was armored.

In the end, my arms ACHED, because of the stance I was holding, because of the tension energy I was consuming.

But training like that is necessary, even if one's life style isn't expected to encounter that kind of situation, because in reality, things will be so much faster, be used so much faster.

It may not last 5 minutes but for most of us in that first and probably only situation, we will come out of it feeling so drained.
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Old 08-06-2014, 10:31 PM
 
30 posts, read 24,515 times
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Flip a coin and see the other side.

It's the "shooter" and his/her determination to WIN at all costs that makes the difference.




Glock 27 at 230 yards - YouTube
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Old 08-06-2014, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,964 posts, read 10,723,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Know View Post
Not to brag on myself, but, if the "perp/s" aren't hit and down within the first 3 (each) rounds fired, I've seriously failed. I don't play games, and I don't hold hands. When my weapon comes out of the holster, someone will die. They can see it in my eyes, my body language and in my soul. Could mean they will stop shooting or not shoot at all and run. Good, they should...they WILL die!!

I don't have children, I'll make sure any and ALL of yours make it though. I have nothing to lose.
One of the most erroneous pieces of advice floating around in the concealed carry world is that "if you pull your weapon, you have to use it" or "don't pull your weapon unless you're going to use it"

Considering the numbers show that a great many self defense cases that involve a gun end successfully without a shot ever being fired, I fail to see how that bit of advice continues to be legitimized by so many people.....
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