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Old 06-30-2014, 06:24 PM
 
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Some posters are acting they carry every day as if they are going to a known gun fight.

I have to ask, what life style do you guys live? Do you have a life style that you anticipate to encounter multiple assailants in a gun fight? Are your assailants not like roaches that run away after the first guy gets shot? If your answer is "no", then I'd say you are either in law enforcement, or you are engaged in illegal drugs activities or involved in organized crimes. No commom street thugs are brave enough to risk their own lives.

To the poster who justifies a semi-auto because "military & police no longer use revolvers", I'd say I am a "civilian" therefore do not engage in OFFENSIVE combat situation. I engage in SELF DEFENSE when I am outside of my house in a CCW situation.

If you want to carry a full size auto because you will not feel comfortable with less than 17 rounds in the clip, I will say that is your personal choice to do so. That will not be my personal choice as a CCW (I may, however; keep that in my car when I travel but not a CCW). I evaluate my carry needs base on my life style, risk, and the most probable scenarios.

My best self defense continues to be what's between my ears by having situational awareness & a prudent life style. But what works for me may not work for you. For example, i do not go into a high crime neighborhood or hang out on a street corner at 2:00am, nor do I buy/sell/deal with illegal drugs. Everyone has to evaluate their own situations and decide for themselves.
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
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One carries a personally reasonable amount of firepower for any possible emergency, just like some folks like to carry full auto/home insurance.

I tote an LCP in fair weather, a Kahr CW45 while wearing a jacket.

Don't carry a BUG.

That's reasonable to me. I do not care what any other law-abiding citizen carries...or why.
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Old 06-30-2014, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Itinerant
5,242 posts, read 3,783,184 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
It would be more of a consideration for semi-auto's than a revolver because in a revolver, if the cartridge is defectrive and doesn't fire, you just pull the trigger again.
Only if your interpretation of a defective cartridge is that the primer doesn't fire. There's a whole slew of cartridge failures that render all guns non-functional (ask any reloader), and one specific that can render only revolvers non-functional that will not affect semi-auto's, the dreaded weak seating crimp. This allows the bullet to back out of the cartridge, and foul the action jamming it completely and is the only failure I've personally experienced with a revolver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
In a semi-auto, if the bullet is defective, you're done 'fer, depending on the situation of course. Maybe you'll have the ability to rack the slide and chamber another round, maybe not.
A bit over-dramatic, don't you think? Which is more likely, the delta between a revolver being firable after an FTF, and a semi-auto being firable after an FTF being the critical time to ensure survival,

Or...

dropping your revolver on a hard surface and having it fail to function when needed for defense vs. dropping your semi-auto on a hard surface and having it fail to function when needed for defense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
A criminal grabbing your slide, and knocking it out of battery sounds implausible to you?

Don't most self defense situations consist of point shooting at close ranges ?
The only implausible is that it's a differentiating benefit of a revolver over a semi-auto than a revolver. To knock a semi auto out of battery the attacker has to grab the slide and push it away from himself two specific actions one with significant accuracy at speed (grabbing the slide), to jam a revolver he has to wrap the gun in his mitt and hold tight. In both scenarios if done correctly when the gun owner hauls back on the trigger the semi-auto won't fire, nor will the revolver, but once the hand is freed, the semi-auto will fire, but there's a risk that the revolver mechanism can be damaged by overstressing the action, because lets be honest you're not going to be too careful that you're exerting 3-4 times the normal trigger pull weight and you'd probably not even notice, revolver actions are far more delicate than semi-auto actions mainly because a semi auto action has to at most raise then drop a hammer, but a revolver action has to rotate a cylinder too.

Both are pretty stupid actions by the attacker, because unless you're incompetent you're not going to be that close, there is no reason to advance in a self defense scenario, there's every reason to retreat, so the only reason an attacker can be at arms length is if you permit it.
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Dublin, CA
3,813 posts, read 3,546,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HB2HSV View Post
Some posters are acting they carry every day as if they are going to a known gun fight.

I have to ask, what life style do you guys live? Do you have a life style that you anticipate to encounter multiple assailants in a gun fight? Are your assailants not like roaches that run away after the first guy gets shot? If your answer is "no", then I'd say you are either in law enforcement, or you are engaged in illegal drugs activities or involved in organized crimes. No commom street thugs are brave enough to risk their own lives.

To the poster who justifies a semi-auto because "military & police no longer use revolvers", I'd say I am a "civilian" therefore do not engage in OFFENSIVE combat situation. I engage in SELF DEFENSE when I am outside of my house in a CCW situation.

If you want to carry a full size auto because you will not feel comfortable with less than 17 rounds in the clip, I will say that is your personal choice to do so. That will not be my personal choice as a CCW (I may, however; keep that in my car when I travel but not a CCW). I evaluate my carry needs base on my life style, risk, and the most probable scenarios.

My best self defense continues to be what's between my ears by having situational awareness & a prudent life style. But what works for me may not work for you. For example, i do not go into a high crime neighborhood or hang out on a street corner at 2:00am, nor do I buy/sell/deal with illegal drugs. Everyone has to evaluate their own situations and decide for themselves.
All good points, however, you train and prepare for the highest bar; not the lowest. You train for the worst cast scenario, which is multiple threats, many rounds of ammunition fired. Being in a "self defense" mode is already
mode of defeatism. You lost the fight before it began. Every life threatening situation is offensive. YOU take the offense and take the fight to the enemy. You move with, close with, and destroy them; or you die. Doesn't matter if you are a civilian or law enforcement/military. The tactics for winning a gunfight are no different.

I am a police officer. I carry a Sig P226 .40 caliber on duty, with 5 magazines. I also carry a Glock 26 as my back up, with a total of 3 magazines. You can do the math if you choose. I also carry an M4 with a total of 15 30 round magazines at my disposable and a Remington 870. I have about 40 12 gauge rounds with me for that too. In my "active shooter" bag, I have an additional 3 magazines for my primary handgun and another 100 rounds of ammo, PLUS 6 more 30 round magazines for my rifle. Why? If the SHTF in some school or anywhere else, I'll have the ammo to make it (I hope) through the fire fight.

I've been in firefights with just a 9mm Sig P226 (that is a total of 47 rounds of ammo) and I ran out. Luckily, I had more ammo in my patrol car. You have no clue what life is like, when you going against three armed men, all with rifles, with just a handgun, and you are empty; those rounds from them still smacking over your head.

You can never have too much ammo, beans, or band aids. Any other thinking is foolish and down right stupid.
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Old 06-30-2014, 10:01 PM
 
4,780 posts, read 8,423,707 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil306 View Post
All good points, however, you train and prepare for the highest bar; not the lowest. You train for the worst cast scenario, which is multiple threats, many rounds of ammunition fired. Being in a "self defense" mode is already mode of defeatism. You lost the fight before it began. Every life threatening situation is offensive. YOU take the offense and take the fight to the enemy. You move with, close with, and destroy them; or you die. Doesn't matter if you are a civilian or law enforcement/military. The tactics for winning a gunfight are no different.
Some people train for the end of world. I don't.
Some preps for the end of world. I don't.

I train for what I considered credible scenarios as a CIVILIAN. Only the military and the Law Enforcement are required to take the fight to the enemy. If we as civilians do that, it would be called aggression and it will be very difficult to prove that I acted in "self defense". I don't go out to "prevent crimes". If I see a robbery takign place, I am not obligated to jump in with the gun blazing. I use my CCW only as last resort to save myself and/or my loved ones. This thing between my ears will engage long before I draw my gun.


Quote:
I am a police officer. I carry a Sig P226 .40 caliber on duty, with 5 magazines. I also carry a Glock 26 as my back up, with a total of 3 magazines. You can do the math if you choose. I also carry an M4 with a total of 15 30 round magazines at my disposable and a Remington 870. I have about 40 12 gauge rounds with me for that too. In my "active shooter" bag, I have an additional 3 magazines for my primary handgun and another 100 rounds of ammo, PLUS 6 more 30 round magazines for my rifle. Why? If the SHTF in some school or anywhere else, I'll have the ammo to make it (I hope) through the fire fight.
First, thank you for what you do as a police officer.

You've just prove my point previously. We are not like you and we do not do this for a living. This thread is about what we carry as a CCW, not open carry with 5 spare magazines strapped on my belt. We don't get to "open carry" a Remington 870 in our "sedans", nor do we get to carry an "active shooter bag" in our trunk. But I also do not wear a vest day in & day out.

However; unlike you, we are not required to charge into a gun fight, to stop a gun man/ men, and to physically tackle a drug-craze lunatic who refuse to go down with several shots to the A-zone. Let's say if a mass-shooting happen in a mall where I happen to be in, my only obligation is to escape safely with my loved ones whereas you'll need to charge in with your AR and your active shooters bag. That's the difference between you and I, a police officer vs. a civilian.

ps- Just FYI. I too have a Sig P-226 in .40S&W. I just do not CCW it.

Quote:
I've been in firefights with just a 9mm Sig P226 (that is a total of 47 rounds of ammo) and I ran out. Luckily, I had more ammo in my patrol car. You have no clue what life is like, when you going against three armed men, all with rifles, with just a handgun, and you are empty; those rounds from them still smacking over your head..
I remember the N. Hollywood shoot-out as I watched it live on TV. Not saying that's the scenario you're talking about but, in any case, I am happy that you escaped unharmed in that scenario. I do not wish that for any law enforcement personnel so you'll carry what you think you'll need in carrying out your duties.

But again, we are talking a different place in life here. Suppose this happened while you were OFF-DUTY, then I would ask more questions but that's neither here nor there.


Quote:
You can never have too much ammo, beans, or band aids. Any other thinking is foolish and down right stupid.
I'll tell you what. You go ahead carry that 20 pound belt on your waist day in & day out. In fact, I am HAPPY that you carry them all because when I need a police officer, I will be glad that he/ she is well armed !!

But what do you carry when you go out for a movie with your wife? Where are that 5 spare magazines when you are in a bathing suit on the beach? Are you being foolish and down right stupid by not strapping that belt on your bathing suit?

Being stupid & foolish is when you fail to think.

Last edited by HB2HSV; 06-30-2014 at 10:10 PM..
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Old 06-30-2014, 10:09 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,749 posts, read 2,632,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HB2HSV View Post
Some posters are acting they carry every day as if they are going to a known gun fight.
Noone here has mentioned a shotgun or rifle, so I disagree. I would ask though...why would you carry something that you wouldn't be 100% comfortable with...? It sounds like you are carrying something based on the thought "I don't need this" rather than "This might be IT."

I have to ask, what life style do you guys live? Do you have a life style that you anticipate to encounter multiple assailants in a gun fight? Are your assailants not like roaches that run away after the first guy gets shot? If your answer is "no", then I'd say you are either in law enforcement, or you are engaged in illegal drugs activities or involved in organized crimes. No commom street thugs are brave enough to risk their own lives. I strongly disagree. Also, I don't plan for "common". I live in a dirty little southern town full of theft and murder. I try to keep that in mind.

To the poster who justifies a semi-auto because "military & police no longer use revolvers", I'd say I am a "civilian" therefore do not engage in OFFENSIVE combat situation. I engage in SELF DEFENSE when I am outside of my house in a CCW situation. Okay, but they continued to say "more boolits". Since you don't engage in what they do, I can assume that you are not going to claim to be a superior force than they are, correct? Their hit probabilities insinuate that you should likely carry a semi-auto with several spare mags...

If you want to carry a full size auto because you will not feel comfortable with less than 17 rounds in the clip, I will say that is your personal choice to do so. That will not be my personal choice as a CCW (I may, however; keep that in my car when I travel but not a CCW). I evaluate my carry needs base on my life style, risk, and the most probable scenarios. Personal choice. Can't debate that one. FWIW, on roadtrips I usually carry a suppressed SBR.

My best self defense continues to be what's between my ears by having situational awareness & a prudent life style. But what works for me may not work for you. For example, i do not go into a high crime neighborhood or hang out on a street corner at 2:00am, nor do I buy/sell/deal with illegal drugs. Everyone has to evaluate their own situations and decide for themselves.
Your last paragraph is one of the best pieces of info in this thread. However, please consider that the dirtiest street corner within your city at 2am is probably safer than my commute to work at 6pm. Madison has no crime at all based on the quick data I looked up. I would walk naked through the streets and be safer there than with my SAPI plates and M4 here in Shreveport, except of course for the legal charges, lol!
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Old 06-30-2014, 10:19 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,749 posts, read 2,632,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil306 View Post
All good points, however, you train and prepare for the highest bar; not the lowest. You train for the worst cast scenario, which is multiple threats, many rounds of ammunition fired. Being in a "self defense" mode is already
mode of defeatism. You lost the fight before it began. Every life threatening situation is offensive. YOU take the offense and take the fight to the enemy. You move with, close with, and destroy them; or you die. Doesn't matter if you are a civilian or law enforcement/military. The tactics for winning a gunfight are no different.

I am a police officer. I carry a Sig P226 .40 caliber on duty, with 5 magazines. I also carry a Glock 26 as my back up, with a total of 3 magazines. You can do the math if you choose. I also carry an M4 with a total of 15 30 round magazines at my disposable and a Remington 870. I have about 40 12 gauge rounds with me for that too. In my "active shooter" bag, I have an additional 3 magazines for my primary handgun and another 100 rounds of ammo, PLUS 6 more 30 round magazines for my rifle. Why? If the SHTF in some school or anywhere else, I'll have the ammo to make it (I hope) through the fire fight.

I've been in firefights with just a 9mm Sig P226 (that is a total of 47 rounds of ammo) and I ran out. Luckily, I had more ammo in my patrol car. You have no clue what life is like, when you going against three armed men, all with rifles, with just a handgun, and you are empty; those rounds from them still smacking over your head.

You can never have too much ammo, beans, or band aids. Any other thinking is foolish and down right stupid.
Luckily, that's never been me, nor do I hope it ever could be! However, I have done some CQB/FOF training where it was 1:1, each person armed with a simunition pistol and 10 rounds. I have seen both people run dry, or one person run dry and then the other person hit them with the last 1-2 rounds after they saw the other become less combat effective, etc.

I remember one of my "shoot outs" with a former Ranger, current SWAT member, who had 100's of hours in a shoothouse. We shot it out at about 10-12' distance, and the Ranger hit me 1 or 2 times low in the abdomen off-center. Real bullets? I would have bet I would have lived...but maybe I wouldn't have...but then and there? Low value hits. I missed him all 8 times (Simgun jammed, lost 2 rounds clearing it...simguns...).

Anyway, multiple people went through the shoot house multiple times. I think the highest "hit rate" was about 40%. It occurred when someone with previous training scars from shooting non-return fire targets in a shoot-house burst into a room and the occupant just dumped a mag into them. The average hit percentage was 20-30%, and 0-10% during the low-light portion occurred multiple times.

I used to think..."5-6 rounds? Hell yeah! This is taken care of!" But even using simunitions (they hurt), once the adrenalin is pumping, etc. that 5-6 rounds feels like 1 or 2. People who think 5-6 rounds is enough need to get some real FoF training and see if they still feel the same. I doubt many do.
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Old 06-30-2014, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Dublin, CA
3,813 posts, read 3,546,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HB2HSV View Post
Some people train for the end of world. I don't.
Some preps for the end of world. I don't.

I train for what I considered credible scenarios as a CIVILIAN. Only the military and the Law Enforcement are required to take the fight to the enemy. If we as civilians do that, it would be called aggression and it will be very difficult to prove that I acted in "self defense". I don't go out to "prevent crimes". If I see a robbery takign place, I am not obligated to jump in with the gun blazing. I use my CCW only as last resort to save myself and/or my loved ones. This thing between my ears will engage long before I draw my gun.




First, thank you for what you do as a police officer.

You've just prove my point previously. We are not like you and we do not do this for a living. This thread is about what we carry as a CCW, not open carry with 5 spare magazines strapped on my belt. We don't get to "open carry" a Remington 870 in our "sedans", nor do we get to carry an "active shooter bag" in our trunk. But I also do not wear a vest day in & day out.

However; unlike you, we are not required to charge into a gun fight, to stop a gun man/ men, and to physically tackle a drug-craze lunatic who refuse to go down with several shots to the A-zone. Let's say if a mass-shooting happen in a mall where I happen to be in, my only obligation is to escape safely with my loved ones whereas you'll need to charge in with your AR and your active shooters bag. That's the difference between you and I, a police officer vs. a civilian.

ps- Just FYI. I too have a Sig P-226 in .40S&W. I just do not CCW it.



I remember the N. Hollywood shoot-out as I watched it live on TV. Not saying that's the scenario you're talking about but, in any case, I am happy that you escaped unharmed in that scenario. I do not wish that for any law enforcement personnel so you'll carry what you think you'll need in carrying out your duties.

But again, we are talking a different place in life here. Suppose this happened while you were OFF-DUTY, then I would ask more questions but that's neither here nor there.




I'll tell you what. You go ahead carry that 20 pound belt on your waist day in & day out. In fact, I am HAPPY that you carry them all because when I need a police officer, I will be glad that he/ she is well armed !!

But what do you carry when you go out for a movie with your wife? Where are that 5 spare magazines when you are in a bathing suit on the beach? Are you being foolish and down right stupid by not strapping that belt on your bathing suit?

Being stupid & foolish is when you fail to think.
Off duty, in plain clothes, I carry two handguns: A Sig P226 9mm with a total of 3 magazines. I also carry a Glock 26; again with 3 magazines. In my SUV, I have my M4 and Remington 870. I never go anywhere with a car, unless I'm out of the country, without my rifle/shotgun combo.

When I go hiking/backpacking I carry the same two handguns. I go running with my Glock in my pocket and a spare magazine.

Again, you don't have to be military or police to prepare for the worst. People who do not, are the ones who walk around with a gun and they are the one's killed. They don't have the proper mindset and proper education to face a deadly confrontation and WIN. To WIN you have to take the fight to the enemy; doesn't matter who you are.

And yes, I've carried about 40 lbs on my body for the past 25 years. Thank god I don't have much longer to go. Even when I retire, I'll have 2 guns on me and my rifle/shotgun combo in my SUV. Its faster to take out a second gun, then reload or clear a malfunction.

Oh, one more thing: If I were on the beach, yes, I'd still have my two handguns with me. Tucked in my bathing suit? Probably not, however, not improbable to have one. In my bag which I would have with me? Definitely. I take 2 guns with me to church.
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Old 06-30-2014, 10:27 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,749 posts, read 2,632,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil306 View Post
Off duty, in plain clothes, I carry two handguns: A Sig P226 9mm with a total of 3 magazines. I also carry a Glock 26; again with 3 magazines. In my SUV, I have my M4 and Remington 870. I never go anywhere with a car, unless I'm out of the country, without my rifle/shotgun combo.

When I go hiking/backpacking I carry the same two handguns. I go running with my Glock in my pocket and a spare magazine.

Again, you don't have to be military or police to prepare for the worst. People who do not, are the ones who walk around with a gun and they are the one's killed. They don't have the proper mindset and proper education to face a deadly confrontation and WIN. To WIN you have to take the fight to the enemy; doesn't matter who you are.

And yes, I've carried about 40 lbs on my body for the past 25 years. Thank god I don't have much longer to go. Even when I retire, I'll have 2 guns on me and my rifle/shotgun combo in my SUV. Its faster to take out a second gun, then reload or clear a malfunction.

Oh, one more thing: If I were on the beach, yes, I'd still have my two handguns with me. Tucked in my bathing suit? Probably not, however, not improbable to have one. In my bag which I would have with me? Definitely. I take 2 guns with me to church.
How does this work? This is the one thing I have had issues with. When I go jogging in 100* weather, I will be honest, I prefer to do it shirtless, otherwise I will end up chafing under the arms once I get sweaty. I prefer lighter shorts. I know that pendulum swinging around would be mighty impressive, but...so how do you carry even a G42 without that?
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Old 06-30-2014, 10:31 PM
 
4,780 posts, read 8,423,707 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Only if your interpretation of a defective cartridge is that the primer doesn't fire. There's a whole slew of cartridge failures that render all guns non-functional (ask any reloader), and one specific that can render only revolvers non-functional that will not affect semi-auto's, the dreaded weak seating crimp. This allows the bullet to back out of the cartridge, and foul the action jamming it completely and is the only failure I've personally experienced with a revolver.
Anyone who uses his own reloads for a CCW gun is asking for legal trouble. A plaintiff's attorney will have a field day on this.

Use factory ammo for your CCW. Better yet, use what the law enforcement uses.



Quote:
A bit over-dramatic, don't you think? Which is more likely, the delta between a revolver being firable after an FTF, and a semi-auto being firable after an FTF being the critical time to ensure survival,

Or...

dropping your revolver on a hard surface and having it fail to function when needed for defense vs. dropping your semi-auto on a hard surface and having it fail to function when needed for defense?
A semiauto has higher number of "failure modes" than a revolver. Assuming both work prior to you take them out for the day, e.g., both cycles flawlessly. So what could go wrong?

Most likely ammo-induced failure mode
1) Weak primer strike - failure to fire
2) Failure to eject (semi-auto only), or
3) Cylinder fail to rotate (revolver only)
4) Failure to feed (semi-auto only)

#1 can happen to both semiauto or revolver, even with factory ammo. If it is revolver then only mode #3) is a concern. But if it is a semiauto, then you'll have mode #2 and #4 (they maybe related cause/effect) to deal with.


Quote:
The only implausible is that it's a differentiating benefit of a revolver over a semi-auto than a revolver. To knock a semi auto out of battery the attacker has to grab the slide and push it away from himself two specific actions one with significant accuracy at speed (grabbing the slide), to jam a revolver he has to wrap the gun in his mitt and hold tight. In both scenarios if done correctly when the gun owner hauls back on the trigger the semi-auto won't fire, nor will the revolver, but once the hand is freed, the semi-auto will fire, but there's a risk that the revolver mechanism can be damaged by overstressing the action, because lets be honest you're not going to be too careful that you're exerting 3-4 times the normal trigger pull weight and you'd probably not even notice, revolver actions are far more delicate than semi-auto actions mainly because a semi auto action has to at most raise then drop a hammer, but a revolver action has to rotate a cylinder too.

Both are pretty stupid actions by the attacker, because unless you're incompetent you're not going to be that close, there is no reason to advance in a self defense scenario, there's every reason to retreat, so the only reason an attacker can be at arms length is if you permit it.
It will be a bad day if you allow the bad guy close enough to grab your gun. It will be a stupid move by the gun owner. Practice self-defense distance and gun-retention techniques.
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