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Old 07-10-2014, 07:13 PM
 
5,240 posts, read 2,387,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Now this I agree is a major issue. I've had this discussion both her and with my younger brother. I think "flipping" is unethical, though I recognize its legality. I think it's a low-class person who will go into a store and buy the entire stock with the intent of marking it up and reselling at a higher price. I agree with you that people should stop buying from these guys so the artificial market demand will dry up. Good luck with that, though.

On the other hand, I am not opposed to incidental sales. If I have box sitting unused and by chance someone offers a fair price for it, fair game. I don't object to a transaction like this, it's just like selling any other piece of property. It's buying with the explicit intent of drying up the primary market and marking up on the secondary market where I object.
Why do you hate capitalism?

No such thing as "artificial demand." The demand for .22 ammo is very real, there is nothing artificial about it.
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Old 07-10-2014, 07:30 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,317 posts, read 10,468,319 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
Why do you hate capitalism?

No such thing as "artificial demand." The demand for .22 ammo is very real, there is nothing artificial about it.


Retailers charge a price pretty close to market equilibrium. A secondary market dominated by those who pilfer the regular market is indeed an artificial demand. It's not normal market conditions.

"Hate capitalism."
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Old 07-10-2014, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,951 posts, read 10,327,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post


Retailers charge a price pretty close to market equilibrium. A secondary market dominated by those who pilfer the regular market is indeed an artificial demand. It's not normal market conditions.

"Hate capitalism."
Guess what the solution to all this madness is??????

Just quit buying it from the people who are buying and re selling for 3, 4, or even 5x the price. Pretty simple solution.

Personally, I don't think the problem is re sellers. That has passed.

Distributors and dealers are taking us all on a ride and are quite content to let you believe it's re sellers that are keeping the market dry. That's what I think is going on. For that matter, quit buying it from the dealers as well. That might mean you can't shoot for awhile, but I say so be it.
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:01 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,317 posts, read 10,468,319 times
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You may be right, WS, but I'm not entirely certain about it. I go back to profit margin per round as my explanation. In most stores lately the shelves are stalked full of ammo, save .22. Some of it, including 5.56 at prices at or even below the big run on ammo. Seems retainers and their suppliers are catching up with all the stuff that brings in a higher profit per round.

On another note, Gander was giving away a box of Remington Thunderbolt free with purchase of a cleaning kit. 500 rounds.
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Seal Beach, California
600 posts, read 597,252 times
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Lol Remington Thunderbolts. Worst .22LR ammo ever hah. I used to use CCI MiniMags which were amazing, also like Walmart's Federals.

Remington Thunderbolts are crap. So are Winchester's .22. Both those ammos I'd have this black gunk in my gun afterwards.

CCI's there was a light soot that could be wiped off. Federals were a bit more 'dirty' but that was also manageable with just a toothbrush and towels.


Remingtons and Winchesters I had to get out the Hoppes.
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Seal Beach, California
600 posts, read 597,252 times
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I'll just throw out my guess here and say that I think it could be due to an artifical shortage as well. Ammo isn't a high tech product, and if they wanted to crank it out hard and cheap, that's what China does very well and is more than willing to do.

My guess is that the ammo is being deliberately withheld or at least not being produced massively. The perceived shortage creates the illusion of limited availability so it keeps a steady bid in at all times. Prolongs the time to pocket the money, but longer-term as long as the perception is there, then it will continue.

The irony is that the actual prices of guns are fairly normal. It's just the ammo that is being scapled.
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:37 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,317 posts, read 10,468,319 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxLMG View Post
Lol Remington Thunderbolts. Worst .22LR ammo ever hah. I used to use CCI MiniMags which were amazing, also like Walmart's Federals.

Remington Thunderbolts are crap. So are Winchester's .22. Both those ammos I'd have this black gunk in my gun afterwards.

CCI's there was a light soot that could be wiped off. Federals were a bit more 'dirty' but that was also manageable with just a toothbrush and towels.


Remingtons and Winchesters I had to get out the Hoppes.
I had never even heard of them until seeing the display at Gander Mountain with the "Free" sign taped to the front. Since I was not in need of a cleaning kit I passed on the "free" ammo. In my mind a good product is worth paying for (or charging for, depending on what side of the retail counter one stands) and I sort of figured there was a reason that specific product was being given away free with a purchase.

I'm with you all the way on CCI MM. That is a good product! Love their Stingers as well!
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Old 07-10-2014, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,951 posts, read 10,327,031 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
You may be right, WS, but I'm not entirely certain
about it. I go back to profit margin per round as my explanation. In most stores
lately the shelves are stalked full of ammo, save .22. Some of it, including
5.56 at prices at or even below the big run on ammo. Seems retainers and their
suppliers are catching up with all the stuff that brings in a higher profit per
round.
That could be.

Quote:
On another note, Gander was giving away a box of Remington Thunderbolt free with
purchase of a cleaning kit. 500 rounds.
Pffft..... they can keep it lol. Worst .22 round ever made, them and their "cyclone" sister brand.... At this point though, there are probably a lot of people who'd love to hav'em. I probably had 5 or 6 duds out of every 20 or 30 rounds. At least.
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Old 07-10-2014, 10:41 PM
 
5,240 posts, read 2,387,943 times
Reputation: 5119
Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post


Retailers charge a price pretty close to market equilibrium. A secondary market dominated by those who pilfer the regular market is indeed an artificial demand. It's not normal market conditions.

"Hate capitalism."
Some retailers do. Wal-Mart is an example of one that doesn't, and is the primary source for the ammo flippers.

You have described sellers in the secondary market. That's the supply side, not the demand side. The demand is real, not artificial.

The flippers are not able to pilfer the "regular market." They are able to engage in arbitrage ONLY because a few sources, like Wal-Mart, are selling below equilibrium. If Wal-Mart charged the market price, they wouldn't sell out of .22 ammo almost immediately upon putting it on the shelves.
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Old 07-11-2014, 03:04 AM
 
Location: Seal Beach, California
600 posts, read 597,252 times
Reputation: 433
Yeah the .22LR Thunderbolts just are very very dirty ammo. I'm not sure if they are the ones with the lead tips, but there's another garbage version that has lead noses so it creates even a bigger mess. It's hilarious b/c my gun is stainless and when I take it apart it's very clear where all the black powder is coated.

CCI Mini Mags and also the Stingers are really nice. The stingers have a little more powder packed into them and have a nice nickle plated casing. I wouldn't recommend .22 as a carry, but if you did, I'd load only Stingers as ammo. They also have a couple shorts as well, but I never used those.

I don't need to shoot CCIs that's more of a luxury, but I find Federals at Walmart a good medium. It's not as clean as CCI, but costwise it's fine and I'm ok with it.

I used to shoot Federal in my Glock 19 as well and those never were a problem either.

I really just don't like Winchester (.22 and 9mm) and Remington (.22).

Remington's 9mm isn't as bad. Their .22 stuff is just terrible though.
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