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Old 07-09-2014, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,907 posts, read 8,482,525 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
Most of the time carrying a firearm is annoying and uncomfortable. Hopefully, that's all it ever is. However, when that thug smashes the passenger side window of your vehicle in while his buddy distracts you at the red-light on the driver's side asking for a smoke, do you really want to reach down and pull out your 4-shot .22 1" barrel derringer/revolver, or would you rather it be a full-size M&P9 stoked with proper expanding ammunition?

You may never---hopefully will never---be in a position to care...but if you are, you WILL care. A lot. Then, "The best" as well as the training with with, will be what gets you home, or not.
In your scenario: But if I shoot the fellow asking for a smoke in the face, I believe that four shot .22 would be quite effective. At six inches, I rarely miss my target.

And the sound of a gun being fired would probably give the window smasher pause and the idea to run from my car.
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Old 07-09-2014, 02:29 PM
Status: "King of the World" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Itinerant
5,191 posts, read 3,748,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
I don't know anyone who has done what you did who thinks 2 to the body 1 to the head and 1 flier is anything to be counted on as actually happening reliably. YMMV, but that is a 75% hit ratio, and you just listed multiple opponents. I don't think this is realistic. At least, I never saw anyone do that with a simgun even, including Rangers and others. One MARSOC unit actually decided to do 2 weeks of nothing but sims after getting torn up during one of those classes because of the training scars that shoot-houses tend to cause. I just have never seen an organization that publishes a 75% hit ratio, but then, I don't know what SEAL/Ranger/MARSOC hit ratios are. Just going on what LE departments have made public, there.
If you cannot hit a target at 10 yards, with a handgun (which is what I'd consider self-defense range out of a war zone), the you have issues and need to be more concerned about hitting the target before getting to more advanced training.

Firstly two shots are body shots, you can do that point shooting (or should be able to) at 1/2 hip, last is the tricky one.

Second, I'm not counting on it, I train for it, that's ok because I carry a 16+1 handgun, and another 48 rounds just in case. Reread what I said, worst case refers to the scenario, not number of shots, I'm all good if I burn up all my ammo and are still breathing at the end, but training, I'm a realist and allow myself 25% miss ratio, just in training. I'm not going for 5 opponents because I'd prefer an SMG or a rifle and if they're all armed I'd like backup too thanks oh and Body Armor would be nice too, chances are I'm not coming out alive though. Which is why I estimate 4 rounds per person, three people is 12 rounds I avoid a reload for those shots (and have 5 more before first reload). Now consider if I have a 5 round revolver, 65 rounds available all to be fired, is 13 reloads. If in training I'm expending 4 rounds per target, then I'm all good.

How is that extraordinarily difficult?

Yeah I agree with Monkey, don't rely on police hit ratio's on average they're seriously bad (not saying there are none who are good, just saying that in general they could be better, but it's not their job to be expert marksman with handguns).
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:35 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,614,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
In your scenario: But if I shoot the fellow asking for a smoke in the face, I believe that four shot .22 would be quite effective. At six inches, I rarely miss my target.

And the sound of a gun being fired would probably give the window smasher pause and the idea to run from my car.
I agree, but an M&P9 is also useable for the same kind of shot. Options...
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:43 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
If you cannot hit a target at 10 yards, with a handgun (which is what I'd consider self-defense range out of a war zone), the you have issues and need to be more concerned about hitting the target before getting to more advanced training.
On the square range I can tear a hole the size of a silver dollar in a target at 10 yards with a pistol, but when you get into a dynamic situation using a compromised stance, cover, moving, and are being shot at, I have found I can't do that anymore.

Firstly two shots are body shots, you can do that point shooting (or should be able to) at 1/2 hip, last is the tricky one.
Noone teaches point shooting anymore. It's an outdated technique from times when there were a lot of people to train, and not enough training to be had, and it was better than nothing.

Second, I'm not counting on it, I train for it, that's ok because I carry a 16+1 handgun, and another 48 rounds just in case. Reread what I said, worst case refers to the scenario, not number of shots, I'm all good if I burn up all my ammo and are still breathing at the end, but training, I'm a realist and allow myself 25% miss ratio, just in training. I'm not going for 5 opponents because I'd prefer an SMG or a rifle and if they're all armed I'd like backup too thanks oh and Body Armor would be nice too, chances are I'm not coming out alive though. Which is why I estimate 4 rounds per person, three people is 12 rounds I avoid a reload for those shots (and have 5 more before first reload). Now consider if I have a 5 round revolver, 65 rounds available all to be fired, is 13 reloads. If in training I'm expending 4 rounds per target, then I'm all good.

How is that extraordinarily difficult?
Well, how many times have you done it? I didn't see ANYONE at the AMIS training I did do better than 50% hit-ratio, and that includes one guy who spent 10 years as a Ranger and had hundreds of hours in a shoothouse. Also a lot of LE, etc. Sometimes, 2 guys went into the structures with 10 rounds each, and only 1 hit resulted. I used to talk a lot oftrash about police officers missing often, as well. But I realized that your genetic potential didn't dumb-down when you put a badge on. That's just...what to expect. Sure, training can mitigate a lot of it, but I've yet to see it mitigate all of it. That same former Ranger had NO PROBLEM accurately and reliably shooting through windshields 1-handed, dropping targets at 160+ yards (rifle), etc. when I trained with him on previous occasions. Even running drills support side he was fine at. 1-handed reloads and engagement with the pistol out to 50 yards. Just not a problem for anyone. However...throw in the structure, cover, return-fire, surprise, etc....the wheels just fall off the bus sometimes.

Yeah I agree with Monkey, don't rely on police hit ratio's on average they're seriously bad (not saying there are none who are good, just saying that in general they could be better, but it's not their job to be expert marksman with handguns).
Just my experience. I can make hits out to 50 yards, either hand, on demand, with my handgun. It's not an accuracy issue. It's a stress/training issue, and I've seen and spoken to guys with a TON of training and actual combat time have the same issue, including MARSOC units (They revised training methods because of it). Food for thought.

*ETA: I am talking about clearing structures (NEVER a good idea, but sometimes necessary...rural LE...maybe an intruder between you and your kid's bedroom as point of entry, etc.). Maybe a stand-up "gunfight" would be different. I can't speak to that as I have not been in one, and hope to never be in one, regardless of what training I do.
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Old 07-09-2014, 11:40 PM
Status: "King of the World" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: Itinerant
5,191 posts, read 3,748,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
Just my experience. I can make hits out to 50 yards, either hand, on demand, with my handgun. It's not an accuracy issue. It's a stress/training issue, and I've seen and spoken to guys with a TON of training and actual combat time have the same issue, including MARSOC units (They revised training methods because of it). Food for thought.
How can they have a ton of actual combat time, if they're falling apart under the stress of an exercise? Sure I can understand them falling apart under actual fire at least the first time (or extenuating circumstances, like someone just took a hit and they're taking a permanent nap), the second I'd be bawling them out, the third, then I'd be transferring them to a non-front line unit. What were these people doing in "actual combat" and in a Special Operation Command?

BTW I quoted actual combat, because someone who was in Helmand was not necessarily IN actual combat unless they were being shot at and engaging the enemy. Just being there doesn't count, there are plenty guys in the SOC's that aren't front line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
*ETA: I am talking about clearing structures (NEVER a good idea, but sometimes necessary...rural LE...maybe an intruder between you and your kid's bedroom as point of entry, etc.). Maybe a stand-up "gunfight" would be different. I can't speak to that as I have not been in one, and hope to never be in one, regardless of what training I do.
Why would I be clearing structures? I got enough of that in the service.

I'd only ever be clearing my house and then I'd be doing it with a shotgun, SBR, or SMG, and completely different to concealed carry (apples and oranges), because I only concealed carry when I'm away from home, and I'm not going into some random house and clearing it without 3 other guys, an SBR/SMG, smoke, flashbangs, frags, thermal, and comms. If I positively have to clear a structure (and I'm not conscripted back into the Military whichever conscripted me), then I'm going to ask a simple question, is the structure intended to be an asset, if not, then I have some dynamite on hand, and I can probably rig it to demolish the place, it's a lot easier clearing it afterwards.
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Old 07-10-2014, 02:07 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,614,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
How can they have a ton of actual combat time, if they're falling apart under the stress of an exercise? Sure I can understand them falling apart under actual fire at least the first time (or extenuating circumstances, like someone just took a hit and they're taking a permanent nap), the second I'd be bawling them out, the third, then I'd be transferring them to a non-front line unit. What were these people doing in "actual combat" and in a Special Operation Command? They didn't fall apart. They just had hundreds of hours of training in shoot-houses. Those build training scars. One such person (Ranger, SOCOM only technically), I know personally. He spent plenty of time in actual combat actually killing people and actually getting shot at. His error was moving into a room aggressively without using cover. You have to understand, those people are used to doing things a bit different. Plate gear, and as many bodies as fast and violently as possible each covering their own "lane" pumping into a building is how they are used to doing it. Not 1:1 "sneaking" through a structure. This class was very different than what they were used to, and I did end up shooting it out with that Ranger. He hit me 2 out of 8 shots. Low and in the abdomen. Definitely not fight-stopping, and maybe not even fatal if I had gotten medical attention in the next 10-30 minutes, had it been an actual shootout. Now, also keep in mind my experience with some of these people is VERY limited, based on a few classes I have taken with them. Never have been in the military or LE, I just rub shoulders with them, so I am looking in through a keyhole to their world, but what I have NOT seen is 75%+ hit ratios on moving targets returning fire and using cover. YMMV.

BTW I quoted actual combat, because someone who was in Helmand was not necessarily IN actual combat unless they were being shot at and engaging the enemy. Just being there doesn't count, there are plenty guys in the SOC's that aren't front line.



Why would I be clearing structures? I got enough of that in the service. Why? Well if you're smart and lucky, you NEVER would. That was made clear, and after the simunition training, I agree 100%, but what do you do if you hear your livingroom window smashed in and your infant daughter's bedroom is on the far side of that window from you? You may be forced to move through your home. Voluntarily? HECK NO! But sometimes there are situations...

I'd only ever be clearing my house and then I'd be doing it with a shotgun, SBR, or SMG, and completely different to concealed carry (apples and oranges), because I only concealed carry when I'm away from home, and I'm not going into some random house and clearing it without 3 other guys, an SBR/SMG, smoke, flashbangs, frags, thermal, and comms. If I positively have to clear a structure (and I'm not conscripted back into the Military whichever conscripted me), then I'm going to ask a simple question, is the structure intended to be an asset, if not, then I have some dynamite on hand, and I can probably rig it to demolish the place, it's a lot easier clearing it afterwards. See my above scenario...
Agree with a lot of what you said. I think some of the misunderstanding here is in my effort to communicate what I am trying to communicate, and your understanding of it. Agree to disagree, but I agree far more than I disagree, with what you just typed.
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Old 08-05-2014, 12:49 AM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
8,876 posts, read 4,832,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
.........Now with that said, I see a thread like this one http://www.city-data.com/forum/35444342-post1.html and I wonder what is the point?

It is as if the average gun owner faces multiple threats every week, month, day so as to require having the most effective weapon one can buy. I've ben prepared for the last 40 years and have yet to fire a shot in anger. My guess this is the case for 99.99% of the folk who post away on this forum saying a revolver is not going to keep you safe. See link. IMO learn how to shot your weapon and don't be paranoid
Let me see if I can answer what you are asking.

I use automatics because that's what I've been trained on, pistol wise, my entire life. First the 1911, a pass at an M9, a Llama, 2 Kimbers, evaluation of various others as I tried to find the gun for me, my USP, and now a P239.

But I do occasionally check out a revolver to learn how to shoot that particular model.

Why?

Basically, that's my life, I need to know. I hope to never be in a gun fight, as one of my profs put it, never HAVING to shoot.

But either for the hoped for never "shooting war" or to know what the other guy used or will be using, I need to know as much about what is out there as possible.
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Old 08-05-2014, 01:07 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,614,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
This being the gun forum and all I need to say one thing first. I like guns. They are fun and I own a few. I think we do not need new gun laws. Let's just enforce the ones that are already on the books.

Now with that said, I see a thread like this one http://www.city-data.com/forum/35444342-post1.html and I wonder what is the point?

It is as if the average gun owner faces multiple threats every week, month, day so as to require having the most effective weapon one can buy. I've ben prepared for the last 40 years and have yet to fire a shot in anger. My guess this is the case for 99.99% of the folk who post away on this forum saying a revolver is not going to keep you safe. See link. IMO learn how to shot your weapon and don't be paranoid
Well, see, automakers do the same thing regarding vehicle safety. Applicable situation.
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Old 08-05-2014, 07:29 AM
 
2,181 posts, read 2,037,088 times
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Wow, I hadn't checked out that semi vs revolver post yet... Scary.
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Old 08-07-2014, 07:57 AM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,773 posts, read 3,679,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
It is as if the average gun owner faces multiple threats every week, month, day so as to require having the most effective weapon one can buy. I've ben prepared for the last 40 years and have yet to fire a shot in anger. My guess this is the case for 99.99% of the folk who post away on this forum saying a revolver is not going to keep you safe. See link. IMO learn how to shot your weapon and don't be paranoid
I have had life insurance since I was born. My parents bought it for me. I have never used it, and I hope I don't have to use it for many many years. In spite of this, I don't plan on canceling it tomorrow. Actually, now that I think about it, I may call and ask about increasing it. It's not that I'm worried about dying, it's that if I do I want my wife and kids well taken care of.

See the correlation here?

That said, I have never felt undergunned carrying either a 5-shot .38Spcl or a 6+1 Walther PPS.

That said, I have never been forced to use my weapon in self-defense (YMMV).
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