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Old 08-07-2014, 04:50 PM
 
8 posts, read 5,197 times
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you can miss the entire man, repeatedly, at 10 FEET, really easily, no matter who you are, if you are not wearing ear protection, the light is bad, you are evading blows, ducking bullets, the attacker is using cover, moving, etc. I can prove this to you very easily, with airsoft guns. You're just kidding yourself if you think otherwise, and the derringer and mini-revolvers should all come with chocalate handles, so they slide down your throat more easily, cause that's where they are likely to end up.

if you shoot somebody who'd doing nothing more than ask a question, you're going to prison for at least 20 years, and you belong there for being a paranoid nutjob.

I've held men at gunpoint several times in my life, and i"d have drawn a gun several other times, if I'd been carrying too. The only time I've had to actually fire was on a dog.
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
7,848 posts, read 7,835,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by writon View Post
you can miss the entire man, repeatedly, at 10 FEET, really easily, no matter who you are, if you are not wearing ear protection, the light is bad, you are evading blows, ducking bullets, the attacker is using cover, moving, etc. I can prove this to you very easily, with airsoft guns. You're just kidding yourself if you think otherwise, and the derringer and mini-revolvers should all come with chocalate handles, so they slide down your throat more easily, cause that's where they are likely to end up.

if you shoot somebody who'd doing nothing more than ask a question, you're going to prison for at least 20 years, and you belong there for being a paranoid nutjob.

I've held men at gunpoint several times in my life, and i"d have drawn a gun several other times, if I'd been carrying too. The only time I've had to actually fire was on a dog.
You're an Austin police officer?












(that's a local joke - no offense intended)
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Old 08-13-2014, 07:32 AM
 
329 posts, read 298,620 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
please do not include any sort of stories from the police. cops are some of the worst shooters in the USA. most civilian shooters make the police look like rank amateurs. I have been involved in 2 shooting in my civilian life and was also involved in combat while in the military as well.
my 1st civilian shooting I shot my target with 4 rounds with a 45 and hit all 4 rounds center mass from 12 feet, my roommate hit the target with 2 buckshot shells from 12 feet as well.

my 2nd shooting I shot at my target 5 times and hit 4 times from 4 feet, did not come to a full draw, just shot from the hip.

if a person practices enough and get proper training, and then trains themselves as well, anything is possible.

all of the shootings I was involved in including the ones in the military, I had started to get tunnel vision, but you can combat that by moving your head from L to R looking for additional threats.
Good thread until we get to the usual cop hate.
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Old 08-13-2014, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Central Maine
2,868 posts, read 2,848,975 times
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Having owned and carried both revolvers and semi-autos in both my professional life (duty sidearm) and private life and having taught firearms marksmanship all I can say, agreeing with the op, is that whatever one carries where their life depends on it, one had better be proficient, knowledgable and safe in its carry, storage and use.
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Old 08-15-2014, 08:49 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
13,422 posts, read 42,812,710 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
This being the gun forum and all I need to say one thing first. I like guns. They are fun and I own a few. I think we do not need new gun laws. Let's just enforce the ones that are already on the books.

Now with that said, I see a thread like this one http://www.city-data.com/forum/35444342-post1.html and I wonder what is the point?

It is as if the average gun owner faces multiple threats every week, month, day so as to require having the most effective weapon one can buy. I've ben prepared for the last 40 years and have yet to fire a shot in anger. My guess this is the case for 99.99% of the folk who post away on this forum saying a revolver is not going to keep you safe. See link. IMO learn how to shot your weapon and don't be paranoid
In general, I agree. "It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian!"

That said, with a single action revolver, reloading under stress is stressful and damn slow.

With DA, if you have speedloaders, reload is slower than an autoloader, but not that bad.

One serious advantage of autoloaders is that if you have several magazines available, you probably have more than enough rounds to take out anything short of a military fire team.

A revolver that you are familiar with is better than an autoloader that's unfamiliar, IMHO.

I would trust myself more to "work" a wheelgun having been woken up by an intruder. I don't know about you but for the first minute or two, depending on how hard I was sleeping before, I'm not 100% for manual dexterity or mental agility.

I don't have stats handy, but I think the vast majority of civilian defense situations, at home or not, are resolved without firing. I would hazard a guess that many of the rest are just a single round, does not matter much if it is a hit or a near miss, the thug is convinced to pick on someone else. But occasionally a situation requires shooting up a really big guy, wearing a heavy coat, jacked up on some sort of drugs such that he feels little pain.
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Old 08-16-2014, 03:49 PM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,886 posts, read 12,556,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crue cab View Post
Good thread until we get to the usual cop hate.


no cop hate intended. most cops go to shoot twice a year, once to practice right before their qualification. now that does not mean that some cops do like to shoot more often, but most cops that enter IDPA and other tournaments end up getting their butts handed to them.

go to the range sometime and watch your local LEO's shoot sometime, you will realize how bad of a shot they truly are.
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Old 08-16-2014, 06:18 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,749 posts, read 2,619,447 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
no cop hate intended. most cops go to shoot twice a year, once to practice right before their qualification. now that does not mean that some cops do like to shoot more often, but most cops that enter IDPA and other tournaments end up getting their butts handed to them.

go to the range sometime and watch your local LEO's shoot sometime, you will realize how bad of a shot they truly are.
Well, I will say one thing about that. I mainly shoot with SWAT and other more specialized officers, but they have all been excellent shots and great at weapon manipulation/safety.

However, then you have the "rank and file". To many, the firearm is like the radio or the car. They view it as "required weight added" and have the same problem many people in this thread have---"I have a pistol/rifle, so I am safe! I can shoot someone, no problem! I put a few rounds into the paper at 7, and 15 yards and all were in the black! Why shoot more? I am already g2g!" and they leave it at that. Their departments do not send them for advanced training. They do not ever draw their weapon during their career (most likely), and it never matters. It was just an annoying added weight and bulge for the seatbelt to go over.

A lot of this is changing, though. Police are getting more and better training. However, some still lag---because they think they don't need it. The last course I attended was put on by a very reputable instructor who has trained departments and military units all over the country and abroad. 2 free slots were offered to the local LE department for allowing us to use their facility. Both slots remained empty. Noone from the dept. showed up. It was amazing and sad.
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Old 08-17-2014, 01:15 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,886 posts, read 12,556,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
Well, I will say one thing about that. I mainly shoot with SWAT and other more specialized officers, but they have all been excellent shots and great at weapon manipulation/safety.

However, then you have the "rank and file". To many, the firearm is like the radio or the car. They view it as "required weight added" and have the same problem many people in this thread have---"I have a pistol/rifle, so I am safe! I can shoot someone, no problem! I put a few rounds into the paper at 7, and 15 yards and all were in the black! Why shoot more? I am already g2g!" and they leave it at that. Their departments do not send them for advanced training. They do not ever draw their weapon during their career (most likely), and it never matters. It was just an annoying added weight and bulge for the seatbelt to go over.

A lot of this is changing, though. Police are getting more and better training. However, some still lag---because they think they don't need it. The last course I attended was put on by a very reputable instructor who has trained departments and military units all over the country and abroad. 2 free slots were offered to the local LE department for allowing us to use their facility. Both slots remained empty. Noone from the dept. showed up. It was amazing and sad.


over all %wise, civilians are way better shots than cops are, even swat teams and the like. I don't get to shoot as much as special forces do in the military, but I do manage to shoot between 25k-30k rounds of ammo a year. I also try and make it to 5-6 training courses each year, especially before the feds try and ban it for civilians, just like they are trying to ban body armor for civilians.
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Old 08-17-2014, 08:15 AM
 
4,769 posts, read 8,397,459 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
In general, I agree. "It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian!"

That said, with a single action revolver, reloading under stress is stressful and damn slow.

With DA, if you have speedloaders, reload is slower than an autoloader, but not that bad.
The crux of this argument is that you assume you will need to reload in a civillian "self defense" scenario. Since a majority of us has never need to draw our weapon (thankfully), the real question I have is what is the realistic scenario involved in civillian "self defense" shootings?

Unfortunately this data is difficult to come by and, in the absence of data, we tend to build hypothetical scenarios to justify our comfort level. In this case, more rounds is better. We also compensate our lack of training with having more rounds in the guns we carry (another comfort level compensation issue). This becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy when "officers involved shootings" tend to empty their guns once the shooting start; thereby support the argument that you need more ammo & whatever you carry is never enough.

I am not a anti-semi. I own more semi-automatics than I do own wheel guns. I do carry a J-frame and a S&W shield, so neither are high round count weapons. But for me, this is more comfortable than carry my P226 on a daily basis and that satisfies 99.999% of my likely encounters. My life style (white collar/middle class/good neighborhood) does not warrant me armed like in a war zone on a daily basis. You situation may be different & thus will lead to a different conclusion on what you've decided to carry.

Needless to say, be proficient with your weapon no matter what you decide to carry. One scenario most of us don't do often practice enough is under a distressed-fire situatiion.

Quote:
I don't have stats handy, but I think the vast majority of civilian defense situations, at home or not, are resolved without firing. I would hazard a guess that many of the rest are just a single round, does not matter much if it is a hit or a near miss, the thug is convinced to pick on someone else. But occasionally a situation requires shooting up a really big guy, wearing a heavy coat, jacked up on some sort of drugs such that he feels little pain.
I agree with your assessment. I maintain the best defense is between your ears. Be able to recognize a potentially hostile confrontation & get yourself outta there before it escalates have served me well for 50+ years without resulting to draw my weapon.

If you do encounter a "really big guy, wearing a heavy coat, jacked up on drugs", chances are he is too incoherent to cause you harm. You are not a LEO and you do not need to confront him. Besides, with the "advancing technology in 9mm hollow point bullets, there is (virtually) no difference between the 9mm, 40S&W, and the 45 ACP".
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Old 08-17-2014, 08:19 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,749 posts, read 2,619,447 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
over all %wise, civilians are way better shots than cops are, even swat teams and the like. I don't get to shoot as much as special forces do in the military, but I do manage to shoot between 25k-30k rounds of ammo a year. I also try and make it to 5-6 training courses each year, especially before the feds try and ban it for civilians, just like they are trying to ban body armor for civilians.
I would point out that you are not a "typical civilian". I go through only a fraction of that, as my budget is much less than yours being in my late 20's and still trying to get established. I go through around 5K rounds a year and 2-3 courses. I just try to make them count as best I can!

Why do you think that "typical civilians" are better shots? Well, here is an interesting theory...


A typical civilian that is a good shot...likely enjoys and goes shooting, agree? I mean, how else would you determine that they were a "good shot", right? Other than they go shooting?

I think we can agree on that, yes?

Well, what about a police officer? Shooting is maybe .001% of their job. Is it an important part? YES!!! But is it a frequent part? No. One can be a darn good officer and never once fire a weapon outside of qualifications. Many officers do not place much importance on "being a good shot". Why? because to them, it's just another tool for the job---a very VERY rarely used tool. Also, people are attracted to police work for many other reasons (thankfully!!!) than "shooting".

In closing, the typical civilian who is a good shot got that way because they love it and go shooting. The typical police officer...may or may not "be a gun guy" and may or may not place as much importance on that specific part of their kit as they should.
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