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Old 07-07-2014, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
7,912 posts, read 8,488,256 times
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This being the gun forum and all I need to say one thing first. I like guns. They are fun and I own a few. I think we do not need new gun laws. Let's just enforce the ones that are already on the books.

Now with that said, I see a thread like this one http://www.city-data.com/forum/35444342-post1.html and I wonder what is the point?

It is as if the average gun owner faces multiple threats every week, month, day so as to require having the most effective weapon one can buy. I've ben prepared for the last 40 years and have yet to fire a shot in anger. My guess this is the case for 99.99% of the folk who post away on this forum saying a revolver is not going to keep you safe. See link. IMO learn how to shot your weapon and don't be paranoid
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Old 07-07-2014, 10:51 PM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,886 posts, read 12,546,843 times
Reputation: 5210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
This being the gun forum and all I need to say one thing first. I like guns. They are fun and I own a few. I think we do not need new gun laws. Let's just enforce the ones that are already on the books.

Now with that said, I see a thread like this one http://www.city-data.com/forum/35444342-post1.html and I wonder what is the point?

It is as if the average gun owner faces multiple threats every week, month, day so as to require having the most effective weapon one can buy. I've ben prepared for the last 40 years and have yet to fire a shot in anger. My guess this is the case for 99.99% of the folk who post away on this forum saying a revolver is not going to keep you safe. See link. IMO learn how to shot your weapon and don't be paranoid

I for one do not even think that any laws should be written against the peoples right to keep and bear arms. not 1 law at all.
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Old 07-07-2014, 11:23 PM
Status: "King of the World" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Itinerant
5,195 posts, read 3,750,771 times
Reputation: 4068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
Now with that said, I see a thread like this one http://www.city-data.com/forum/35444342-post1.html and I wonder what is the point?

It is as if the average gun owner faces multiple threats every week, month, day so as to require having the most effective weapon one can buy. I've ben prepared for the last 40 years and have yet to fire a shot in anger. My guess this is the case for 99.99% of the folk who post away on this forum saying a revolver is not going to keep you safe. See link. IMO learn how to shot your weapon and don't be paranoid
I don't think that using revolvers are being under equipped for any possible scenario, there are clearly scenario's where short of Air and Artillery support, or just having a 22LR Derringer you would be under-equipped or over equipped respectively, but that's mostly outside of the realms of possible for being under equipped (I've been over equipped all of my civilian life).

That said, it all depends on your defense plan, personal defense against people, my worst case scenario is four shots per person (Mozambique with the 3rd shot a flyer), and three opponents. If it's more than that I'm probably hoping I have my rifle handy. Anyway back to point that's 12 total rounds fired, from a six shot revolver it's one reload, from a 5 shot revolver it's two reloads, from most semi-auto's its no reload. That's not to say I think that I couldn't manage it with a revolver with sufficient practice, but, a semi-auto meets my needs better. Whether or not I ever have to use my defense plan or not I don't know, I'll get back to you if able when I do know, hopefully the plan will have worked as expected and I can report back.

I also live in bear country, there I carry a revolver (six shot 454 Casull) and a shotgun (seven shot slugs), both are capable of doing the job most of the time. I don't carry these when I'm not concerned about bears.

Two different plans for two different situations. Plan A (people defense) will probably suffice for 3 or fewer opponents, Plan B (bear defense) will probably suffice for bear defense. As I said so far I've been over equipped, but better that than the converse (and I'm not lugging huge amounts of hardware around with me anyway, did that in the military, but at least there I had a good idea I would need it). We all roll the dice and hope that when we need to we perform as expected, and that our plans are sufficient.
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Old 07-07-2014, 11:31 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,616,034 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
This being the gun forum and all I need to say one thing first. I like guns. They are fun and I own a few. I think we do not need new gun laws. Let's just enforce the ones that are already on the books.

Now with that said, I see a thread like this one http://www.city-data.com/forum/35444342-post1.html and I wonder what is the point?

It is as if the average gun owner faces multiple threats every week, month, day so as to require having the most effective weapon one can buy. I've ben prepared for the last 40 years and have yet to fire a shot in anger. My guess this is the case for 99.99% of the folk who post away on this forum saying a revolver is not going to keep you safe. See link. IMO learn how to shot your weapon and don't be paranoid
Most of the time carrying a firearm is annoying and uncomfortable. Hopefully, that's all it ever is. However, when that thug smashes the passenger side window of your vehicle in while his buddy distracts you at the red-light on the driver's side asking for a smoke, do you really want to reach down and pull out your 4-shot .22 1" barrel derringer/revolver, or would you rather it be a full-size M&P9 stoked with proper expanding ammunition?

You may never---hopefully will never---be in a position to care...but if you are, you WILL care. A lot. Then, "The best" as well as the training with with, will be what gets you home, or not.
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Old 07-07-2014, 11:40 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,616,034 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
I don't think that using revolvers are being under equipped for any possible scenario, there are clearly scenario's where short of Air and Artillery support, or just having a 22LR Derringer you would be under-equipped or over equipped respectively, but that's mostly outside of the realms of possible for being under equipped (I've been over equipped all of my civilian life).

That said, it all depends on your defense plan, personal defense against people, my worst case scenario is four shots per person (Mozambique with the 3rd shot a flyer), and three opponents. Have you ever shot moving,aggressive, returning-fire people before? It sortof sounds good when you type that, but it doesn't really work like that all the time. I've only done simunition training/structure clearing, and I can tell you that's not what I saw ANYONE succeeding at doing, including people who have served in some of our country's best forces. If it's more than that I'm probably hoping I have my rifle handy. Anyway back to point that's 12 total rounds fired, from a six shot revolver it's one reload, from a 5 shot revolver it's two reloads, from most semi-auto's its no reload. That's not to say I think that I couldn't manage it with a revolver with sufficient practice, but, a semi-auto meets my needs better. Whether or not I ever have to use my defense plan or not I don't know, I'll get back to you if able when I do know, hopefully the plan will have worked as expected and I can report back.

I also live in bear country, there I carry a revolver (six shot 454 Casull) and a shotgun (seven shot slugs), both are capable of doing the job most of the time. I don't carry these when I'm not concerned about bears.

Two different plans for two different situations. Plan A (people defense) will probably suffice for 3 or fewer opponents, Plan B (bear defense) will probably suffice for bear defense. As I said so far I've been over equipped, but better that than the converse (and I'm not lugging huge amounts of hardware around with me anyway, did that in the military, but at least there I had a good idea I would need it). We all roll the dice and hope that when we need to we perform as expected, and that our plans are sufficient.
Check out the OIS shooting videos from CC's that pop up on Youtube from time to time. See how many rounds most officers have to spend even at close range to get hits on aggressive and determined people. Now, I realize you may say "That officer just couldn't shoot". Well, fair enough, but most OIS's involve a LOT of bullets if the attacker is determined, even if there are hits. Handguns are very poor "manstoppers" unless the CNS is disrupted.
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Old 07-08-2014, 12:13 AM
Status: "King of the World" (set 17 days ago)
 
Location: Itinerant
5,195 posts, read 3,750,771 times
Reputation: 4068
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
Have you ever shot moving,aggressive, returning-fire people before? It sortof sounds good when you type that, but it doesn't really work like that all the time. I've only done simunition training/structure clearing, and I can tell you that's not what I saw ANYONE succeeding at doing, including people who have served in some of our country's best forces.
I was shot in Kosovo with an AK, so what do you think? It hurt plenty, but I was wearing body armor fortunately.

I was in Afghanistan for 3 months in 1996, what sort of unit do you think I was in?

How about you?
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Old 07-08-2014, 09:45 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,616,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
I was shot in Kosovo with an AK, so what do you think? It hurt plenty, but I was wearing body armor fortunately.

I was in Afghanistan for 3 months in 1996, what sort of unit do you think I was in?

How about you?
I don't know anyone who has done what you did who thinks 2 to the body 1 to the head and 1 flier is anything to be counted on as actually happening reliably. YMMV, but that is a 75% hit ratio, and you just listed multiple opponents. I don't think this is realistic. At least, I never saw anyone do that with a simgun even, including Rangers and others. One MARSOC unit actually decided to do 2 weeks of nothing but sims after getting torn up during one of those classes because of the training scars that shoot-houses tend to cause. I just have never seen an organization that publishes a 75% hit ratio, but then, I don't know what SEAL/Ranger/MARSOC hit ratios are. Just going on what LE departments have made public, there.
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:52 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,886 posts, read 12,546,843 times
Reputation: 5210
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
I don't know anyone who has done what you did who thinks 2 to the body 1 to the head and 1 flier is anything to be counted on as actually happening reliably. YMMV, but that is a 75% hit ratio, and you just listed multiple opponents. I don't think this is realistic. At least, I never saw anyone do that with a simgun even, including Rangers and others. One MARSOC unit actually decided to do 2 weeks of nothing but sims after getting torn up during one of those classes because of the training scars that shoot-houses tend to cause. I just have never seen an organization that publishes a 75% hit ratio, but then, I don't know what SEAL/Ranger/MARSOC hit ratios are. Just going on what LE departments have made public, there.


2 shot to the head and 1 to the head with 1 flier means that when they shot their firearm, probably the 1st shot was jerked when the 1st shot was fired. when a person jerks the trigger, the round shall always be off the target you are aiming for.
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Old 07-09-2014, 01:17 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,616,034 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
2 shot to the head and 1 to the head with 1 flier means that when they shot their firearm, probably the 1st shot was jerked when the 1st shot was fired. when a person jerks the trigger, the round shall always be off the target you are aiming for.
I understand, but 75% hit probability is amazing. I certainly wouldn't count on it, and I've never seen anyone else do it even with simunitions training, reliably. Maybe the SOCOM guys who burn 100K rounds a year can count on that, but I am not them, nor are 99.99% of the population.

Quote:
During a 13-year span, the Baltimore County PD, which Aveni regards as one of the best trained in the country, achieved an average hit ratio of 64 percent in daylight shootings - not ideal, but clearly much better than commonly believed. In shootings that occurred in low-light surroundings, however, average hits dropped to 45 percent, a 30 percent decline. The data from Los Angeles County (LAC) reveals a somewhat comparable 24 percent decline.
http://www.policeone.com/officer-sho...ved-shootings/

Quote:
In Los Angeles, which has 9,699 officers, the police fired 283 rounds in 2006, hitting their target 77 times, for a hit ratio of 27 percent, said Officer Ana Aguirre, a spokeswoman. Last year, they fired 264 rounds, hitting 76 times, for a 29 percent hit ratio, she said.
Quote:
New York City police officers fire their weapons far less often than they did a decade ago, a statistic that has dropped along with the crime rate. But when they do fire, even at an armed suspect, there is often no one returning fire at the officers. Officers hit their targets roughly 34 percent of the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/ny...anted=all&_r=0



http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...eport_2011.pdf

Last edited by JWG223; 07-09-2014 at 01:26 PM..
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Old 07-09-2014, 01:42 PM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,886 posts, read 12,546,843 times
Reputation: 5210
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
I understand, but 75% hit probability is amazing. I certainly wouldn't count on it, and I've never seen anyone else do it even with simunitions training, reliably. Maybe the SOCOM guys who burn 100K rounds a year can count on that, but I am not them, nor are 99.99% of the population.

Study reveals important truths hidden in the details of officer-involved shootings

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/ny...anted=all&_r=0



http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...eport_2011.pdf


please do not include any sort of stories from the police. cops are some of the worst shooters in the USA. most civilian shooters make the police look like rank amateurs. I have been involved in 2 shooting in my civilian life and was also involved in combat while in the military as well.
my 1st civilian shooting I shot my target with 4 rounds with a 45 and hit all 4 rounds center mass from 12 feet, my roommate hit the target with 2 buckshot shells from 12 feet as well.

my 2nd shooting I shot at my target 5 times and hit 4 times from 4 feet, did not come to a full draw, just shot from the hip.

if a person practices enough and get proper training, and then trains themselves as well, anything is possible.

all of the shootings I was involved in including the ones in the military, I had started to get tunnel vision, but you can combat that by moving your head from L to R looking for additional threats.
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