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Old 09-29-2014, 10:24 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
most confrontations are at less than 10 feet. most common he has already assaulted the officer and tried to take his gun.
here is what the public does not get.
he is not paid to turn every arrest into a wrestling match. if he were they would hire and recruit from WWE, an arrest is not an invitation to an wrestling match. dont jump on people with a gun. now how hard can that be to understand?
When you stroll off the beaten path of expected/common sense/abiding the law...sometimes a stupid game will win a stupid prize.
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Old 09-29-2014, 11:37 PM
 
92 posts, read 65,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
I've shot a few cars with 5.56. Mainly M193 and M855. They all went through the doors, but they went through in frags. I have found that on a car, you really would be better off using the barrier blind stuff (bonded/M318/Browntip/etc.) Then, I've also had a 270gr Gold Dot SP .44 magnum fired from a 7.5" revolver stopped cold by a car door. I've seen 1oz shotgun slugs enter a driver's door fired 90* from the door, and exit the rear passenger door. Cars are EXTREMELY complex targets, and once your bullet hits a car, you best consider that it will take on a mind of its own. Apply P for Plenty until you get the desired results. That is about the only way to engage a target in a car sensibly.

I've seen M193/M855 actually come apart through a rear windscreen before. Granted, that would likely have still been lethal. Shot some through a trunk into the rear passenger area of a 3-series BMW. Fragged badly, but still a day-ruiner. Bonded ammo/SOST/Browntip just punched right through. Now, shooting from INSIDE of a vehicle out, I have found the most success in punching a hold in the windshield, shoving the muzzle through, and continuing. It (windshield) also shields you wonderfully from the concussion.

In short, the M4 works around vehicles just fine (and contrary to popular opinion, I prefer a 16" gun working around cars, not an SBR, unless the SBR is suppressed. A 16" gun with a mini can is fine, but put a fullsize on, and you begin to restrict yourself in a compact car.), but ammo choice is very important, here. There has been more than one occasion of an officer dumping a full magazine into a vehicle without causing lethal or debilitating injury to the perp when 55gr FMJ or VMAX type rounds were used. Sometimes, that proved fatal for the officer.

The only ammo I have aside from training ammo is MK318/Browntip/Bonded Gold Dot. Really gone away from using FMJ for anything but training and punching paper. Will FMJ (M193/M855) work? Yep. Use P for Plenty though, and consider that it's not the most effective choice.

As to the M4 being modern. You have to consider what people are comparing it to. The AK47, is typically what it is matched against. Piston systems. The M4 is a more modern design using less off-center moving parts to accomplish the same thing. I suppose people mean "modern" in the sense that a gasoline powered vehicle is modern to a horse powered vehicle.

Also, I've seen 193 and 855 at Wal-Mart. I've also seen Colt 6920's, etc. at Wal-Mart. It depends on the wal-mart.
M16/AR15 don't have any problems with cars.......



Navy SEALs Instruction -Muzzle Awareness and Discipline - YouTube
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Old 09-29-2014, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,415,173 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
Lake City makes 5.56 M855 and 5.56 M193, typically. Lake City is actually a plant run under contract. Typically by ATK (Federal) or by Olin (Winchester).

Anyway, M193 is a 55gr FMJ projectile with a lead core loaded to 5.56 pressure.
M855 is a 62gr FMJ with a steel "nose-cone" under the jacket loaded to 5.56 pressure.

Neither are anything special, I can buy them by the case, and so can you, for about $340-380/per thousand.

I suggest you plug in some numbers before you start talking about drop and whatnot. The .308 won't work, either, if you hold it to the same standards for drop you seem to be holding the 5.56
The only thing I shoot is Lake City, I know where to get it, but the average shooter is not going to know where to get it/ They are going to go to Dicks, or Wally World, or Billy Bob's sporting goods. They are not going to pick up premium ammo. They will go into Billy Bob's and have a choice of two different Cal's and three different manufacturers.

As a shooter in the Military for 18 years, I know what the specs they teach and they are bunk. The 556 drops a hell of a lot worse than what they preach, and preach is what they do. If we flung the rifle, we might get the distances they preached.

I asked it before, and I will ask it again. Show me the data of actual shots fired, not what the asking price was.

As far as .308 and .30-06 are concerned, I have often competed at 1500 yards and had good results. I have seen new kids come out with their 15's and couldn't mark paper. They stood there bewildered, thinking something was wrong with their gun. The only thing wrong was their thinking that that pea shooter could carry. It can't.
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Old 09-29-2014, 11:51 PM
 
92 posts, read 65,471 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
The only thing I shoot is Lake City, I know where to get it, but the average shooter is not going to know where to get it/ They are going to go to Dicks, or Wally World, or Billy Bob's sporting goods. They are not going to pick up premium ammo. They will go into Billy Bob's and have a choice of two different Cal's and three different manufacturers.

As a shooter in the Military for 18 years, I know what the specs they teach and they are bunk. The 556 drops a hell of a lot worse than what they preach, and preach is what they do. If we flung the rifle, we might get the distances they preached.

I asked it before, and I will ask it again. Show me the data of actual shots fired, not what the asking price was.

As far as .308 and .30-06 are concerned, I have often competed at 1500 yards and had good results. I have seen new kids come out with their 15's and couldn't mark paper. They stood there bewildered, thinking something was wrong with their gun. The only thing wrong was their thinking that that pea shooter could carry. It can't.
Will rapid fire at 300 do?



USMC M16 SAMR - 300 yard shooting at Quantico MCB 8/08 - YouTube
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Old 09-29-2014, 11:56 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Powered View Post
M16/AR15 don't have any problems with cars.......



Navy SEALs Instruction -Muzzle Awareness and Discipline - YouTube
Using m855 and m193, it will work but is unpredictable and typically you need p for plenty.
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Old 09-29-2014, 11:59 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
The only thing I shoot is Lake City, I know where to get it, but the average shooter is not going to know where to get it/ They are going to go to Dicks, or Wally World, or Billy Bob's sporting goods. They are not going to pick up premium ammo. They will go into Billy Bob's and have a choice of two different Cal's and three different manufacturers.

As a shooter in the Military for 18 years, I know what the specs they teach and they are bunk. The 556 drops a hell of a lot worse than what they preach, and preach is what they do. If we flung the rifle, we might get the distances they preached.

I asked it before, and I will ask it again. Show me the data of actual shots fired, not what the asking price was.

As far as .308 and .30-06 are concerned, I have often competed at 1500 yards and had good results. I have seen new kids come out with their 15's and couldn't mark paper. They stood there bewildered, thinking something was wrong with their gun. The only thing wrong was their thinking that that pea shooter could carry. It can't.
The 5.56 weapons I have fired drop just like was said. It's physics. Go punch in actual mv, g1 bc, and so on and see for yourself?
M855 and or m193 is at walmart and cabelas. What are you talking about??

Also, just for you...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=s99mTfokffc
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9NkQldeu0

Obviously not ideal. However, Noone Is looking around bewildered. I still feel that 0 to 400m is a great envelope for 5.56. It's also further than I'll ever need to shoot.
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Old 09-30-2014, 12:18 AM
 
92 posts, read 65,471 times
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So, what happens on qualification day?
First of all, half of the platoons of a series will shoot in the morning, and the other half will have “pit” duty (not the IT pit, but the range scoring pit!) where they will keep the official scorecards for those recruits who are shooting. In the afternoon they will all switch positions.

For the shooters, they will first set up on the 200 yard line where they will fire 15 rounds in “slow fire” over a time period of 20 minutes. 5 rounds each in the sitting, kneeling and standing position. Then, they will fire 10 rounds of “rapid” fire in one minute, starting in the standing position, then dropping to the deck and assuming the sitting position before their first shot. Total points possible at the 200 yard line – 125 pts.

After the 200 yard rapid fire has completed, all the shooters will move back to the 300 yard position and re-setup.
At the 300 yard line, they will fire 5 rounds in “slow fire” over a 5 minute time period from the sitting position. Then they will fire 10 rounds “rapid fire” in 1 minute – starting in the standing position, but dropping to the deck and assuming the prone position before their first shot. Total points possible at the 300 yard line – 75 points.


The recruits will then move back to the 500 yard line, and here they will fire 10 shots in “slow fire” over a period of 10 minutes from the prone position. Total points possible from the 500 yard line – 50 points.
When they finish this “Table 1” course, the maximum score possible is 250, and they MUST obtain a 190 or above. (If they don't make this minimum score, they will shoot Table I again during “Team Week” – and if they pass at that time they will remain with their platoon. However, if they fail this second chance – they will be dropped from their training platoon and recycled into a following series.)
So, if the wind is steady (and not too brisk) we will likely see a very high percentage of the recruits qualify on Friday (T-40) for Table 1! Ooh-rah!
However, their pursuit of that “Expert” badge isn't complete. After team week, during the first week of third phase, all recruits will be required to pass the two-day combat marksmanship course, referred to as “Table 2”.
This course is specifically designed to more closely simulate quick-reaction and close-range shooting that typifies many Marine firefights. During the qualification day for Table 2, each recruit will fire 50 rounds, primarily from very short ranges (25/50 yards) in a variety of engagement scenarios and MUST obtain a minimum score of 60 points out of 100 possible.
After a recruit passes table 2 firing – his overall rifle qualification score will be computed by adding his Table 1 score to his Table 2 results. A perfect shooter (which happens, but not too frequently) could achieve a total score of 350 (250 from Table 1, and 100 from Table 2).
The badges and designations are rated as follows:


Rifle Marksman – total score between 250 and 279 (but BOTH tables must be passed) (This badge is often referred to as the "pizza box" due to its shape.)

Rifle Sharpshooter – total score between 280 and 304

Rifle Expert – total score 305 or above
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Old 09-30-2014, 12:27 AM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,415,173 times
Reputation: 2147483647
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
The 5.56 weapons I have fired drop just like was said. It's physics. Go punch in actual mv, g1 bc, and so on and see for yourself?
M855 and or m193 is at walmart and cabelas. What are you talking about??

Also, just for you...
1000 yard shot, standard AR15 - YouTube
Long Range Shooting -- 860yd .223 w/target cam - YouTube

Obviously not ideal. However, Noone Is looking around bewildered. I still feel that 0 to 400m is a great envelope for 5.56. It's also further than I'll ever need to shoot.
Wally World doesn't carry it here and there is not a single Cabelas in the entire state. Not one. WalMart here, carry's about 3 types of ammo and believe me, Lake City is not one.

You Tube videos are not data sheets. Believe me, I have doped a lot of firearms. I've got more wheel books then I do boxes of ammo. I normally buy ammo by the can, not the box.
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Old 09-30-2014, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,415,173 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Powered View Post
So, what happens on qualification day?
First of all, half of the platoons of a series will shoot in the morning, and the other half will have “pit” duty (not the IT pit, but the range scoring pit!) where they will keep the official scorecards for those recruits who are shooting. In the afternoon they will all switch positions.

For the shooters, they will first set up on the 200 yard line where they will fire 15 rounds in “slow fire” over a time period of 20 minutes. 5 rounds each in the sitting, kneeling and standing position. Then, they will fire 10 rounds of “rapid” fire in one minute, starting in the standing position, then dropping to the deck and assuming the sitting position before their first shot. Total points possible at the 200 yard line – 125 pts.

After the 200 yard rapid fire has completed, all the shooters will move back to the 300 yard position and re-setup.
At the 300 yard line, they will fire 5 rounds in “slow fire” over a 5 minute time period from the sitting position. Then they will fire 10 rounds “rapid fire” in 1 minute – starting in the standing position, but dropping to the deck and assuming the prone position before their first shot. Total points possible at the 300 yard line – 75 points.


The recruits will then move back to the 500 yard line, and here they will fire 10 shots in “slow fire” over a period of 10 minutes from the prone position. Total points possible from the 500 yard line – 50 points.
When they finish this “Table 1” course, the maximum score possible is 250, and they MUST obtain a 190 or above. (If they don't make this minimum score, they will shoot Table I again during “Team Week” – and if they pass at that time they will remain with their platoon. However, if they fail this second chance – they will be dropped from their training platoon and recycled into a following series.)
So, if the wind is steady (and not too brisk) we will likely see a very high percentage of the recruits qualify on Friday (T-40) for Table 1! Ooh-rah!
However, their pursuit of that “Expert” badge isn't complete. After team week, during the first week of third phase, all recruits will be required to pass the two-day combat marksmanship course, referred to as “Table 2”.
This course is specifically designed to more closely simulate quick-reaction and close-range shooting that typifies many Marine firefights. During the qualification day for Table 2, each recruit will fire 50 rounds, primarily from very short ranges (25/50 yards) in a variety of engagement scenarios and MUST obtain a minimum score of 60 points out of 100 possible.
After a recruit passes table 2 firing – his overall rifle qualification score will be computed by adding his Table 1 score to his Table 2 results. A perfect shooter (which happens, but not too frequently) could achieve a total score of 350 (250 from Table 1, and 100 from Table 2).
The badges and designations are rated as follows:


Rifle Marksman – total score between 250 and 279 (but BOTH tables must be passed) (This badge is often referred to as the "pizza box" due to its shape.)

Rifle Sharpshooter – total score between 280 and 304

Rifle Expert – total score 305 or above
Yup, standard recruit training for the marine corp, and the bullet drop data sheets say what?
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Old 09-30-2014, 12:43 AM
 
92 posts, read 65,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Powered View Post
With Lake City M855 your 25 meter zero will also be your 300 meter zero.


At 500 meters one click on the front sight post changes impact by 17.0 cm

One click on the windage knob is 6.5 cm or 2 1/2".

One click on elevation knob is 14.0 cm or 6 1/2".



At 600 meters one click on the front sight post changes impact by 20.5 cm

One click on the windage knob is 8.0 cm or 3 1/8"

One click on the elevation knob is 16.75 cm or 6 1/2.


The AR15/M16 A2 has a mechanical BDC (bullet drop compensator) built right into it.


Also another way to calculate is with a 100 meter zero your bullet drop at 550 meters will be -61.87 shooting 10.74 MOA

With a 200 meter zero it will be -54.39 and a 14.21 MOA

With a 300 metter zero -40.34 with 7.0 MOA
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Yup, standard recruit training for the marine corp, and the bullet drop data sheets say what?


Remember now at that distance (between 500 and 600) one click on your elevation knob changes impact by 6 1/2".


That's exactly how I calculated it in my head.
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