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Old 09-30-2014, 12:54 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
Reputation: 2654

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Wally World doesn't carry it here and there is not a single Cabelas in the entire state. Not one. WalMart here, carry's about 3 types of ammo and believe me, Lake City is not one.

You Tube videos are not data sheets. Believe me, I have doped a lot of firearms. I've got more wheel books then I do boxes of ammo. I normally buy ammo by the can, not the box.
Great, so run some dope for yourself:
JBM - Calculations - Trajectory

My calculations show that 5.56 does exactly what was said. What do yours show? What were your input values? My real-world experience backs that sheet pretty well.

Maybe in your location it would make sense to just order ammo online then. Wal-Mart doesn't stock enough to meet my needs typically, either. But here, they DO have it.
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Old 09-30-2014, 01:09 AM
 
92 posts, read 65,471 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
Great, so run some dope for yourself:
JBM - Calculations - Trajectory

My calculations show that 5.56 does exactly what was said. What do yours show? What were your input values? My real-world experience backs that sheet pretty well.

Maybe in your location it would make sense to just order ammo online then. Wal-Mart doesn't stock enough to meet my needs typically, either. But here, they DO have it.
Thanks for the link buddy, I book marked it. It's much quicker than the way I was trained to manually figure it out in my head. I've been shooting irons for decades. Took me a lot of blood, sweat and tears to learn it....trust me on that one!

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Old 09-30-2014, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,415,173 times
Reputation: 2147483647
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
Great, so run some dope for yourself:
JBM - Calculations - Trajectory

My calculations show that 5.56 does exactly what was said. What do yours show? What were your input values? My real-world experience backs that sheet pretty well.

Maybe in your location it would make sense to just order ammo online then. Wal-Mart doesn't stock enough to meet my needs typically, either. But here, they DO have it.
Here's the problem. In June, I was in the hospital for over a month. While there, my laptop fizzled and popped. Since then, I have been operating with a notebook, so I can not access my data tables..

A few months ago, somebody started. a thread and somebody posted known data tables, NOT projected, but known data. I can't find that thread so I was hoping that somebody would repost it. Projected is not the same as known results. I seem to remember that the .223/5.56, drops off drastically at around 490 meters. My data shows 6 turns down on the front site and "no known setting" on rear site.

By the way, i get my ammo out of Southern California from the guy that took Doc Young's position when he retired. My supplier buys in lots of 25,000 rounds of match grade at a time. So I get whatever ammo I want, but what I was saying is that Lake City is simply not available around here.
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Old 09-30-2014, 09:13 PM
 
92 posts, read 65,471 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Here's the problem. In June, I was in the hospital for over a month. While there, my laptop fizzled and popped. Since then, I have been operating with a notebook, so I can not access my data tables..

A few months ago, somebody started. a thread and somebody posted known data tables, NOT projected, but known data. I can't find that thread so I was hoping that somebody would repost it. Projected is not the same as known results. I seem to remember that the .223/5.56, drops off drastically at around 490 meters. My data shows 6 turns down on the front site and "no known setting" on rear site.

By the way, i get my ammo out of Southern California from the guy that took Doc Young's position when he retired. My supplier buys in lots of 25,000 rounds of match grade at a time. So I get whatever ammo I want, but what I was saying is that Lake City is simply not available around here.
One thing to remember with a 25/300 meter battle zero is that the bullet flies in an upward arc when fired until about 300 meters when it realigns itself with the bore and POA. That is by cartridge design as well as the barrel, chamber and rifling type and twist. Your mechanical BDC is also built right into the A2 sight.

So in a sense, you are kind of cheating. You're over halfway there and just realigned.


U.S. Marines often use a 36/300 BZO

U.S. Army uses 25/300 BZO.


Both prove to be very effective and you simply rotate your elevation knob to the corresponding distance. You are set on 8/3 and 6/3 out to 300 meters. After that you make adjustments of up to 800 meters. The large aperture is used from 0-200 meters. The small or normal is used from 300-800



Second is the Marine Corps’ recommended 36/300 yard BZO. This BZO calls for zeroing the M16A2/A3/A4 and M4A1 at 36 yards with the setting of the rear elevation at 8/3 and 6/3 using the small (long range) aperture. This provides a trajectory with a maximum ordinate during flight of just over 4.5” above the line of sight at around 200 yards. Thus, with a standard of 12” groups at 300 yards for Marines this would allow for most rounds to impact roughly 9” above the line of sight. With an aiming point on the enemy’s chest the rounds would land high on the upper chest just below the neck between the 150 and 200 yards. This BZO will allow more room for error on the part of the shooter, thus slightly better than the 25/300 meter zero.






Keep in mind some of this is a 'swag' or (scientific wild ass guess). Also the term Kentucky windage is also used.




Means: HOW GOOD ARE YOU G.I.??
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Old 09-30-2014, 09:17 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Here's the problem. In June, I was in the hospital for over a month. While there, my laptop fizzled and popped. Since then, I have been operating with a notebook, so I can not access my data tables..

A few months ago, somebody started. a thread and somebody posted known data tables, NOT projected, but known data. I can't find that thread so I was hoping that somebody would repost it. Projected is not the same as known results. I seem to remember that the .223/5.56, drops off drastically at around 490 meters. My data shows 6 turns down on the front site and "no known setting" on rear site.

By the way, i get my ammo out of Southern California from the guy that took Doc Young's position when he retired. My supplier buys in lots of 25,000 rounds of match grade at a time. So I get whatever ammo I want, but what I was saying is that Lake City is simply not available around here.

I've shot out to 415 with the 5.56, and it does about what I'd expect. I typically zeroed at 200, and at 300, was a foot or so low. At 415, I aimed 2-3 feet high. This was with a 26" bolt gun, so velocity was higher than from an M4.

The data is what it is. You can argue it all you want, but the facts remain that physics doesn't lie.

I ran M193 and M118LR out to 700 yards on a calculator using published BC G1's and actual MV's. They were within a few inches.

I don't really use lakecity much, either, I prefer PMC XTAC M193. Cheap, and I have thousands of rounds down the bore with no issues.

Again, though, to me, the 5.56 is a "point and click" round. If you are shooting further than you can "point and click", you have exceeded the optimal range of the round, IN THE CASE OF THE 5.56. This is because I feel that 5.56 should deform, and be above 1800fps, to cause significant damage. To this end, I typically use Gold Dot, MK318 SOST, or Browntip/SOCOM contract over-run (same as the 70gr TSX rounds from Barnes, just with sealant and at 5.56 pressure). Also, this velocity happily coincides with about 350m, or so. Or, the point at which my zero begins to require more than an Aimpoint dot's hold-over.

Considering my terrain and location, even hunting, 100 yards is a million-mile shot. YMMV, and if you live outside of Vegas, then I think a 5.56 would be a nice "house gun", but I'd want a .308 for the back yard, myself.
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Old 09-30-2014, 09:21 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Powered View Post
One thing to remember with a 25/300 meter battle zero is that the bullet flies in an upward arc when fired until about 300 meters when it realigns itself with the bore and POA. That is by cartridge design as well as the barrel, chamber and rifling type and twist. Your mechanical BDC is also built right into the A2 sight.

So in a sense, you are kind of cheating. You're over halfway there and just realigned.


U.S. Marines often use a 36/300 BZO

U.S. Army uses 25/300 BZO.


Both prove to be very effective and you simply rotate your elevation knob to the corresponding distance. You are set on 8/3 and 6/3 out to 300 meters. After that you make adjustments of up to 800 meters. The large aperture is used from 0-200 meters. The small or normal is used from 300-800



Second is the Marine Corps’ recommended 36/300 yard BZO. This BZO calls for zeroing the M16A2/A3/A4 and M4A1 at 36 yards with the setting of the rear elevation at 8/3 and 6/3 using the small (long range) aperture. This provides a trajectory with a maximum ordinate during flight of just over 4.5” above the line of sight at around 200 yards. Thus, with a standard of 12” groups at 300 yards for Marines this would allow for most rounds to impact roughly 9” above the line of sight. With an aiming point on the enemy’s chest the rounds would land high on the upper chest just below the neck between the 150 and 200 yards. This BZO will allow more room for error on the part of the shooter, thus slightly better than the 25/300 meter zero.






Keep in mind some of this is a 'swag' or (scientific wild ass guess). Also the term Kentucky windage is also used.




Means: HOW GOOD ARE YOU G.I.??
While this is the zero method in years gone by, ACOG's and Aimpoints and BUIS have pretty much eliminated it from relevance.

Also, I would note that the sights are aimed down, over the bore, and the bullet simply is fired in the direction of the bore. It does not rise. The sights are above the bore by 2.5", and aimed toward the ground to coincide with the bore, which they do at only 1 distance. The "near zero". In the case of your explanation, 30/36m. However, if something 2.5" from something coincides with it at that distance, there is obviously an angle between them. The bullet begins falling as soon as it leaves the bore. However, since the bore is aimed above your target at the far zero, the bullet travels a while before gravity has pulled it far enough down to intersect with your LOS (line of sight) again. That is the far zero. The following pictures explain it so much better, though.

What people on the internet think happens:


What really happens:

Last edited by JWG223; 09-30-2014 at 09:30 PM..
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Old 09-30-2014, 09:35 PM
 
92 posts, read 65,471 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
While this is the zero method in years gone by, ACOG's and Aimpoints and BUIS have pretty much eliminated it from relevance.

Also, I would note that the sights are aimed down, over the bore, and the bullet simply is fired in the direction of the bore. It does not rise. The sights are above the bore by 2.5", and aimed toward the ground to coincide with the bore, which they do at only 1 distance. The "near zero". In the case of your explanation, 30/36m. However, if something 2.5" from something coincides with it at that distance, there is obviously an angle between them. The bullet begins falling as soon as it leaves the bore. However, since the bore is aimed above your target at the far zero, the bullet travels a while before gravity has pulled it far enough down to intersect with your LOS (line of sight) again. That is the far zero. The following pictures explain it so much better, though.

What people on the internet think happens:


What really happens:

Nah, I'm an old fart and trained to shoot on irons. Got pretty damn good at it in the last few decades.


The kids will put a world a hurt on you with fresh eyes and a Trijicon ACOG TA31RCO.
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Old 09-30-2014, 09:53 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Powered View Post
Nah, I'm an old fart and trained to shoot on irons. Got pretty damn good at it in the last few decades.


The kids will put a world a hurt on you with fresh eyes and a Trijicon ACOG TA31RCO.
I can shoot as accurately with irons as I can with optics up to about 10X. However, with magnified optics, the advantages are target ID, picking a target out of similar-colored background, low-light shooting, etc.

With an Aimpoint, I am a bit faster, and MUCH faster in low-light. Also, unconventional shooting positions (under/over/around cover) GREATLY favor the Aimpoint/Eotech, as they are much more forgiving of head position.

By and large, almost everything front-line has an optic of some sort on it, now, from what I am seeing/hearing.

Irons are great, and on a well-lit square range, work fine. It's when variables enter the equation that the optics zip out in front for effectiveness.
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Old 09-30-2014, 10:03 PM
 
92 posts, read 65,471 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
I can shoot as accurately with irons as I can with optics up to about 10X. However, with magnified optics, the advantages are target ID, picking a target out of similar-colored background, low-light shooting, etc.

With an Aimpoint, I am a bit faster, and MUCH faster in low-light. Also, unconventional shooting positions (under/over/around cover) GREATLY favor the Aimpoint/Eotech, as they are much more forgiving of head position.

By and large, almost everything front-line has an optic of some sort on it, now, from what I am seeing/hearing.

Irons are great, and on a well-lit square range, work fine. It's when variables enter the equation that the optics zip out in front for effectiveness.
Till one of those SOBs done got FUBARED!

Remember an accomplished shooter can shoot anyway you want, however you want it.



Are We Shooting? - Three Kings - YouTube


And watch it BLEED.......
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Old 09-30-2014, 10:49 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Powered View Post
Till one of those SOBs done got FUBARED!

Remember an accomplished shooter can shoot anyway you want, however you want it.



Are We Shooting? - Three Kings - YouTube


And watch it BLEED.......
This is why all my rifles have irons, as well. Point being, while I have the advantage (optic is working), I'll take it. It takes a lot to kill a good optic...


DDM4 Torture Test - YouTube
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