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Old 10-03-2014, 02:32 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
The gun is touted to be a good gun from 100-300 yards. That's it.

The gun is great at those ranges with a 1 in 8 twist with a 55 grain bullet, and to have a good fragmentation. If you want to shoot further, a 77 grain slug is good, but you need a 1 in 7 twist. That is good for competition. Don't confuse the two because you are not switching barrels in mid fight. The 77 wind fragment the same, so don't try and use it for the same thing.
1/7 works fine with every bullet I've put through it, from 40gr Hornady varmint ammo, to 70gr SOCOM Browntip. No need for switching a barrel until it's shot out.

Typically, fragmentation goes down dramatically after 150 yards or so using M193/M855. It depends on the barrel length. 2700fps is the floor for dramatic fragging.

I prefer to use something barrier-blind/expanding. Stuff I and my friends have had good luck on deer and hogs, etc. with:

-64gr Gold Dot (0.5" expansion, 18" penetration)
-70gr TSX (They really aren't recovered often. Dunno. Drops stuff fast. In gel, they usually show 0.45-0.5" expansion)
-MK318 SOST (Better than M855/M193 on hogs, but not quite as good as the TSX/bonded soft points)

I think of the 5.56 as a 0-400 yard gun, but 300 yards is also a reasonable cap, it's where even the best bullets for it start to expand/deform minimally, so it's a legit upper limit.

Last edited by JWG223; 10-03-2014 at 02:46 AM..
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Old 10-03-2014, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,415,173 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
1/7 works fine with every bullet I've put through it, from 40gr Hornady varmint ammo, to 70gr SOCOM Browntip. No need for switching a barrel until it's shot out.

Typically, fragmentation goes down dramatically after 150 yards or so using M193/M855. It depends on the barrel length. 2700fps is the floor for dramatic fragging.

I prefer to use something barrier-blind/expanding. Stuff I and my friends have had good luck on deer and hogs, etc. with:

-64gr Gold Dot (0.5" expansion, 18" penetration)
-70gr TSX (They really aren't recovered often. Dunno. Drops stuff fast. In gel, they usually show 0.45-0.5" expansion)
-MK318 SOST (Better than M855/M193 on hogs, but not quite as good as the TSX/bonded soft points)

I think of the 5.56 as a 0-400 yard gun, but 300 yards is also a reasonable cap, it's where even the best bullets for it start to expand/deform minimally, so it's a legit upper limit.
Sure, they will shoot just fine on paper, and I have no doubt's with your data. However, the M16 was designed to fragment and tear up things at a particular range with a particular bullet. I mean, that's what its all about, right? The response of the heavier bullet is different than the intended bullet. The standard AR/M derivative does a planed amount off damage when hitting human tissues and that is proven, not projected.

A little more on topic. The law enforcement agency's make purchases and yet they have no knowledge of what the ballistics prove out to be. They think that their agency needs "AR's/M something's" because it's the neat thing to do. They don't have the knowledge to make the proper purchases. They purchase the same weapon for the beat officer to put in their trunk, as the officer that consistently pulls high scores so they make him the swat sniper. Same gun, same ammo, they simply add a scope. Let's face it, the gun is designed to do the same thing, tissue damage and force trauma. Then resulting facts show that they are not the same at different ranges.
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Old 10-03-2014, 04:55 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Sure, they will shoot just fine on paper, and I have no doubt's with your data. However, the M16 was designed to fragment and tear up things at a particular range with a particular bullet. I mean, that's what its all about, right? The response of the heavier bullet is different than the intended bullet. The standard AR/M derivative does a planed amount off damage when hitting human tissues and that is proven, not projected.

A little more on topic. The law enforcement agency's make purchases and yet they have no knowledge of what the ballistics prove out to be. They think that their agency needs "AR's/M something's" because it's the neat thing to do. They don't have the knowledge to make the proper purchases. They purchase the same weapon for the beat officer to put in their trunk, as the officer that consistently pulls high scores so they make him the swat sniper. Same gun, same ammo, they simply add a scope. Let's face it, the gun is designed to do the same thing, tissue damage and force trauma. Then resulting facts show that they are not the same at different ranges.
Traditionally, the 55gr FMJ M193 was what the weapon (M16) was issued with first. It worked fine except when it didn't. When it didn't, we got ice-pick wounds from it.

Then the M855 was designed for the light machinegun (M249), and the military likes "commonality", so it and the M856 tracer were adapted to the M16A2 platform, the barrel was changed to 1/7 (for the sake of the tracer), as we continued on.

It saw very limited use until here recently, when it was discovered that some lots of M855 were "better balanced" than others. Those with less than 0.5* angle fleet-yaw would ice-pick up to 7 inches or more before yawing. The result at any distance was a punctuate wound with very little trauma to the surrounding tissue. Couple this with the drugs our opponents were on, and the results were very poor "stops". Yet some rounds yawed rapidly, as the fleet-yaw angle approached 2.5*. So you will find people who have served in combat who will say "M855 will make horrible wounds. Kills fast." and you will find people who say "It sucks. Might as well shoot them with a .22.", and both people will be giving you honest accounts of actual shootings that they witnessed.

That is what makes the cartridge so "confusing", is everyone has a cousin or friend or their own personal experience with it in combat, and they differ wildly, all while being honest/accurate.

So, again, the military R&D wheels began churning. The MK262 was the result. It was longer. It yawed faster/easier. It fragments down to around 2300fps and gives added accuracy and range to the platform. It worked great, SOCOM began using it. THe downside is that it sucks on auto-glass, or any other barrier. Frags badly and doesn't do much consistently beyond to the target IN the car/behind the car door.

So out comes the US Army with their "green bullet" M855A1. It has a bunch of "teething issues". The USMC comes out with MK318 SOST, which is basically a remington trophy bonded bear claw that isn't bonded. In my tests, the front 1/2 of the bullet fragments violently, while the rear-half is solid copper, and penetrates very well and tracks straight through barriers. Then, the M855A1 worked out its kinks. It performs very well on hard barriers, and from a 14.5" M4 will reliably fragment out to 600m. I have seen gel tests of it before they were taken off the internet by "the powers that be". It's a very nasty round. The downside is that many are reporting drastically reduced barrel life, as it is run at nearly 62,000psi, as compared to the 5-7K lower pressures of M193/M855/MK318/MK262, etc.

Another round that bares mention, and came about right before MK318, is the 5.56 Optimized, or "Browntip". It is a 70gr Barnes TSX bullet loaded at 5.56 pressures. It will expand to roughly 0.5", penetrates 20"+, and is barrier blind. It is issued to SOCOM, and those I have talked to love it. I know guys that hunt large hogs, deer, even light-skinned African game (Nilgai) with it with great results.

The 5.56 no-longer relies on yaw to fragment, nor is complete fragmentation desirable. People are just medium-sized thin-skinned game animals. A deer, if you will. A deer bullet that blew up some of the time or ice-picked the other part of the time would be a horrible failure and unethical to use. Expanding bullets that penetrate are the ticket for deer/hogs/etc. Why would anyone figure that people's physiology somehow makes this multi-century proven phenomenon inaccurate to apply? No, I think the most effective rounds you will find are the controlled expansion or non-yaw dependant fragmenting rounds.

If you want a round that fragments, the king of it all is the 77gr TMK that Black Hills just released in 5.56 pressure form. It will fragment out to nearly 400 yards reliably from a 20" barrel. Well past 300 from a 14.5. If you want barrier-blind, for autoglass you can't beat the 62gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. The FBI issues it as the 556FBIT3, from Federal, as well as the Nosler 64gr Bonded projectile, RA556B, a Winchester loading, I believe is what that one is in.

Anyway, M193 is relegated to practice for me, as I feel that better performance is easily had per my mention above.

Law enforcement agencies suffer from lack of understanding of ballistics. They want my friend who busts meth-labs to use 60gr TAP type ammo, IIRC, and it frags horribly on windshields. I sent him some 70gr TSX, and it drilled the windshield and hammered the target right where he aimed. His chief was semi-disgusted at this result. Of course, his issue ammo is likely to remain the same. Bureaucracy.
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Old 10-06-2014, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Elysium
5,810 posts, read 3,090,163 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
In what world other than the rare exception, does a law enforcement officer encounter a situation that requires the need to shoot 300-400 yards or more?

On average, how often would the availability of an AR-15 make any difference over the sidearm or shotgun? Rarely.

One could argue that it is the exception that needs to be accounted for.

Since when and if so why does that standard not apply to every citizen in this country?
many will argue over the militarization of police and even when a weapon with longer range is need that doesn't mean a rapid fire semi auto is needed. They are just available. In the civilian context counter sniper fire will be a tough sell to a district attorney
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Old 10-06-2014, 08:29 PM
 
245 posts, read 227,420 times
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The AR is superbly fast handling, accurate, adequately powerful, has low recoil, fast repeat shots, doesn't over penetrate (with softpoints) has luminous sight inserts, trigger jobs, .22lr conversion units and silencers readily available for it.. It's the shotguns that are a waste of time and money, not the AR's. When a cop has to shoot some thug who is holding your kid as a hostage, do you want him using a 00 Blast with a pattern that's 6" wide? Will he have practiced at such, enough to not cut your kid's head half off with that pattern spread?

With a short barrel and the sound suppressor, it's still handy in and around a vehicle, while having no flash at night and low levels of blast mean less flinching/missing as well as being able to still hear other cops saying things, (which can be rather important at times.) The suppressor makes the 223 every bit as "tame" to use as the (unsuppressed) .22lr conversion unit. So realistic speed shooting practice can be done for 1/4 as much money. Almost nobody is very skilled with the shotgun, especially with slugs, because of the blast, recoil and very high cost of slugs/buckshot.
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Old 08-01-2015, 08:00 PM
 
58 posts, read 89,809 times
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In urban or large city metro areas they are a liability. You'll see far more in rural and country areas running around. Also big city criminals are seldom heavily armed. Rural criminals are unpredictable and some extremely hardened and motivated could hold their own with a Platoon of Uncle Sam's finest for "awhile". You're talking about guys who grew up around guns and have most likely hunted or shot one at some point in time. Big city kids often just know what they played on a video game or hear in a gangsta rap song. Even if they do happen to have a stolen firearm, it's doubtful how proficient they are with it due to the circumstances of having nowhere to practice with it. Some meth head out in the sticks can just step out his back door. No one cares and no one is the wiser. It's a little different firing off a few rounds at the corner of Second and Forth Street with houses so close to the road they don't even have a garage or a driveway to park in.
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Old 08-01-2015, 09:08 PM
 
286 posts, read 195,859 times
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even at 10 ft, when the enemy is using cover, as Platt was in Miami, it's very easy to miss him dozens of times with just a pistol as your armament. The 223 softpoint actually penetrates less in the way of typical house-contruction than typical 9mm jhp's. The 2-3x higher velocity of the 223 causes the bullets to come apart in hard materials.
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Old 08-01-2015, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,506 posts, read 5,254,415 times
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A .223 will completely punch a clean hole through a pressure treated 8x8 at 100 yards...
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Old 08-01-2015, 10:11 PM
 
286 posts, read 195,859 times
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softpoints wont. You're talking about 62 gr, steel-capped M855, i bet. which is a stupid load for civilians or cops to be using. 55 gr M193 ball aint much better about staying inside of a torso.
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Old 08-02-2015, 07:48 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Texas View Post
In urban or large city metro areas they are a liability. You'll see far more in rural and country areas running around. Also big city criminals are seldom heavily armed. Rural criminals are unpredictable and some extremely hardened and motivated could hold their own with a Platoon of Uncle Sam's finest for "awhile". You're talking about guys who grew up around guns and have most likely hunted or shot one at some point in time. Big city kids often just know what they played on a video game or hear in a gangsta rap song. Even if they do happen to have a stolen firearm, it's doubtful how proficient they are with it due to the circumstances of having nowhere to practice with it. Some meth head out in the sticks can just step out his back door. No one cares and no one is the wiser. It's a little different firing off a few rounds at the corner of Second and Forth Street with houses so close to the road they don't even have a garage or a driveway to park in.

How is an AR-15 a liability in the city?

Also, something you need to be aware of, is that with the GWOT, a lot of service men and women are now retired from the armed service, and out and about in our communities, both rural and urban.

Many of them have combat training AND experience.

Not all of them are good people like we would hope and like to think they are.

Further, those who grew up in the inner city are no stranger to shooting, being shoot, and shooting others. They may embrace a "rap culture", but the bullets are still real, and many of them know first hand how they feel. Don't count them as easy to subdue...


AR-15's penetrate less building material than handguns or pistol-caliber carbines do. They also offer more range, and often a higher capacity. They are a great LE weapon for all areas.
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