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Old 09-29-2014, 07:51 AM
 
Location: San Diego
34,988 posts, read 32,005,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
I don't blame him.
I suppose we could give them MRAPS too. I've never seen or heard of an incident anywhere near there that would warrant it. Even the Sheriff doesn't come out like that, nor the HP. Heck, not even BP and they are first line defense.
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Old 09-29-2014, 08:29 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,943 posts, read 2,811,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
I suppose we could give them MRAPS too. I've never seen or heard of an incident anywhere near there that would warrant it. Even the Sheriff doesn't come out like that, nor the HP. Heck, not even BP and they are first line defense.
That's fine. What do you do for a living, again?
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Old 09-29-2014, 08:53 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Powered View Post
Before the advent of the telescopic sight, average people made extraordinary shots with this sighting arrangement. These days our so-called gun-writers would have you believe that all sporting rifles should shoot 1″ or less at 100 yards, wear optical sighting equipment, and be capable of holding dead on from 0-300 yards. Back in the days when people hunted to live, such rifles were non-existent; yet the human species managed to live on. This is because people were hunters, opting to get closer and be sure, rather than chance a long shot. A shot beyond 100 yards was rare, with most shots being well under 100 yards. Ammunition was expensive, and a chance at a good dear wasn’t something you took lightly. In the back woods, or during the depression era, you stalked within “sure-fire” range, because if you missed, you and your family didn’t eat.





Me either Billy Bob!
I shoot similar with irons as I do with optics until we get to 10X and higher powered. By the time I was a teenager, I could accurately engage targets with an A2 style AR-15 at 300m in heavy wind. Irons are not a difficult thing, however, I currently prefer an Aimpoint or Eotech, simply because I am not shooting anyone or anything or any animal at 300m+. I am shooting deer at less than 100, and perish the thought, a home intruder across a livingroom.
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Old 09-29-2014, 11:36 AM
 
Location: West Phoenix
774 posts, read 939,040 times
Reputation: 1921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Powered View Post
Those guys must have been lousy shots. There isn't a Winchester 30/30 vintage or new that could come close to the accuracy of a AR variant rifle. If you want to trade off to Marlin, it sucks even more. Good for show....but I bet they won't do over 400 yards at best.
And how often are targets engaged at over 400yrds ? sorry, a AR-15 is a overgrown .22, that unless it has special ammo cannot even go thru car sheet metal. If I had to pick one over the other, for punch I would take the Winchester, the AR would only be good for throwing a lot of lead to keeps heads down.

If I had to chose between "modern" battle rifles, I would chose a CETME or something similar.
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Old 09-29-2014, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 36,381,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Powered View Post
With Lake City M855 your 25 meter zero will also be your 300 meter zero.


At 500 meters one click on the front sight post changes impact by 17.0 cm

One click on the windage knob is 6.5 cm or 2 1/2".

One click on elevation knob is 14.0 cm or 6 1/2".



At 600 meters one click on the front sight post changes impact by 20.5 cm

One click on the windage knob is 8.0 cm or 3 1/8"

One click on the elevation knob is 16.75 cm or 6 1/2.


The AR15/M16 A2 has a mechanical BDC (bullet drop compensator) built right into it.


Also another way to calculate is with a 100 meter zero your bullet drop at 550 meters will be -61.87 shooting 10.74 MOA

With a 200 meter zero it will be -54.39 and a 14.21 MOA

With a 300 metter zero -40.34 with 7.0 MOA
I highly disagree with your guesstimate on bullet drop. There have been all kinds of data. sheets posted on this forum that shows bullet drop to be off the charts at 500 meters. Do you have a link too show your data? By the way, I asked about "factory ammo" and lake city is not factory and is not available to the general shooter.
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Old 09-29-2014, 12:40 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,943 posts, read 2,811,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by West Phx Native View Post
And how often are targets engaged at over 400yrds ? sorry, a AR-15 is a overgrown .22, that unless it has special ammo cannot even go thru car sheet metal. If I had to pick one over the other, for punch I would take the Winchester, the AR would only be good for throwing a lot of lead to keeps heads down.

If I had to chose between "modern" battle rifles, I would chose a CETME or something similar.
Hrmmm...

Some would say the Corvette is a useless vehicle that only runs on Premium fuel. Others enjoy a high compression engine that allows more power for the weight.

The 5.56 is a similar animal. It has plenty of killing and penetrating and expanding and all other whatever descriptors you want "power", if you load it correctly.

It also is wonderful for keeping all that lead inside a structure, if you load it correctly and don't want to poke holes in something down the street.

I personally like having a rifle with a 30 round capacity that is lightweight and controllable and will kill anything I need to kill from Black Bear to someone violently entering my house.

YMMV, or you may somehow feel that $1 a round for 5.56 is unacceptable while $1 a round for .308 is, but to me, dead fast = dead fast, and the 5.56 gets it done with a smaller, lighter, more efficient platform.

If you are shooting past 400 yards, or tackling game larger than 3-400# or so, then by all means, I think the .308 is the tool for the job.

However, this is about law enforcement, and that typically means dogs or people, and at relatively close range, with as little potential for collateral as possible. The 5.56 is a great tool for all that.
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Old 09-29-2014, 12:55 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,943 posts, read 2,811,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
I highly disagree with your guesstimate on bullet drop. There have been all kinds of data. sheets posted on this forum that shows bullet drop to be off the charts at 500 meters. Do you have a link too show your data? By the way, I asked about "factory ammo" and lake city is not factory and is not available to the general shooter.
Lake City makes 5.56 M855 and 5.56 M193, typically. Lake City is actually a plant run under contract. Typically by ATK (Federal) or by Olin (Winchester).

Anyway, M193 is a 55gr FMJ projectile with a lead core loaded to 5.56 pressure.
M855 is a 62gr FMJ with a steel "nose-cone" under the jacket loaded to 5.56 pressure.

Neither are anything special, I can buy them by the case, and so can you, for about $340-380/per thousand.

I suggest you plug in some numbers before you start talking about drop and whatnot. The .308 won't work, either, if you hold it to the same standards for drop you seem to be holding the 5.56
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Old 09-29-2014, 04:25 PM
 
92 posts, read 69,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
I shoot similar with irons as I do with optics until we get to 10X and higher powered. By the time I was a teenager, I could accurately engage targets with an A2 style AR-15 at 300m in heavy wind. Irons are not a difficult thing, however, I currently prefer an Aimpoint or Eotech, simply because I am not shooting anyone or anything or any animal at 300m+. I am shooting deer at less than 100, and perish the thought, a home intruder across a livingroom.
Standard GI 300 meter battle zero is done at 25 meters. Your bullet will impact virtually identical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by West Phx Native View Post
And how often are targets engaged at over 400yrds ? sorry, a AR-15 is a overgrown .22, that unless it has special ammo cannot even go thru car sheet metal. If I had to pick one over the other, for punch I would take the Winchester, the AR would only be good for throwing a lot of lead to keeps heads down.

If I had to chose between "modern" battle rifles, I would chose a CETME or something similar.
Any .556 WILL punch a car door and most level II vest like it was nothing. How often are targets engaged at those distances? Enough they train you how to navigate them in a combat situation.

Thank goodness for a man from Gosport Indiana born November 22, 1922. He was a gifted genius and his accomplishment rivals practically anyone elses. Name was Eugene Stoner. I always get a kick out of people who call the M16/AR15 platform "new" "modern". Is your 1957 Chevy "new" or "modern"? Hope not because that's when Stoner invented the platform.


This one is for you buddy.....


RIP Eugene!!!!



The Blairs: Armalite Rifle - YouTube


Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
I highly disagree with your guesstimate on bullet drop. There have been all kinds of data. sheets posted on this forum that shows bullet drop to be off the charts at 500 meters. Do you have a link too show your data? By the way, I asked about "factory ammo" and lake city is not factory and is not available to the general shooter.
Those are GI ballistics, it's in the books and what is taught. Also the use of a A2 sight system and it's adjustments. M855 can be bought anywhere except Wally World, Dick's and places like that. You can even buy a full crate of two cans 820 each (1640) if you want to. I've got piles of full crates and cans sitting here. I don't shoot economy or hunting/civilian rounds out of a Mil-spec AR.
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Old 09-29-2014, 09:26 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,943 posts, read 2,811,071 times
Reputation: 2932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel Powered View Post
Standard GI 300 meter battle zero is done at 25 meters. Your bullet will impact virtually identical.
I always confirm zero at the far zero, for elevation. Typically, I use a 50, or a 100m zero. I am not in the military and can choose what I will. I use optics and BUIS, neither of which are "ranged", so, I pick the best "point and click" zero for my environment.
Any .556 WILL punch a car door and most level II vest like it was nothing. How often are targets engaged at those distances? Enough they train you how to navigate them in a combat situation.

Thank goodness for a man from Gosport Indiana born November 22, 1922. He was a gifted genius and his accomplishment rivals practically anyone elses. Name was Eugene Stoner. I always get a kick out of people who call the M16/AR15 platform "new" "modern". Is your 1957 Chevy "new" or "modern"? Hope not because that's when Stoner invented the platform.


This one is for you buddy.....


RIP Eugene!!!!



The Blairs: Armalite Rifle - YouTube


Those are GI ballistics, it's in the books and what is taught. Also the use of a A2 sight system and it's adjustments. M855 can be bought anywhere except Wally World, Dick's and places like that. You can even buy a full crate of two cans 820 each (1640) if you want to. I've got piles of full crates and cans sitting here. I don't shoot economy or hunting/civilian rounds out of a Mil-spec AR.
I've shot a few cars with 5.56. Mainly M193 and M855. They all went through the doors, but they went through in frags. I have found that on a car, you really would be better off using the barrier blind stuff (bonded/M318/Browntip/etc.) Then, I've also had a 270gr Gold Dot SP .44 magnum fired from a 7.5" revolver stopped cold by a car door. I've seen 1oz shotgun slugs enter a driver's door fired 90* from the door, and exit the rear passenger door. Cars are EXTREMELY complex targets, and once your bullet hits a car, you best consider that it will take on a mind of its own. Apply P for Plenty until you get the desired results. That is about the only way to engage a target in a car sensibly.

I've seen M193/M855 actually come apart through a rear windscreen before. Granted, that would likely have still been lethal. Shot some through a trunk into the rear passenger area of a 3-series BMW. Fragged badly, but still a day-ruiner. Bonded ammo/SOST/Browntip just punched right through. Now, shooting from INSIDE of a vehicle out, I have found the most success in punching a hold in the windshield, shoving the muzzle through, and continuing. It (windshield) also shields you wonderfully from the concussion.

In short, the M4 works around vehicles just fine (and contrary to popular opinion, I prefer a 16" gun working around cars, not an SBR, unless the SBR is suppressed. A 16" gun with a mini can is fine, but put a fullsize on, and you begin to restrict yourself in a compact car.), but ammo choice is very important, here. There has been more than one occasion of an officer dumping a full magazine into a vehicle without causing lethal or debilitating injury to the perp when 55gr FMJ or VMAX type rounds were used. Sometimes, that proved fatal for the officer.

The only ammo I have aside from training ammo is MK318/Browntip/Bonded Gold Dot. Really gone away from using FMJ for anything but training and punching paper. Will FMJ (M193/M855) work? Yep. Use P for Plenty though, and consider that it's not the most effective choice.

As to the M4 being modern. You have to consider what people are comparing it to. The AK47, is typically what it is matched against. Piston systems. The M4 is a more modern design using less off-center moving parts to accomplish the same thing. I suppose people mean "modern" in the sense that a gasoline powered vehicle is modern to a horse powered vehicle.

Also, I've seen 193 and 855 at Wal-Mart. I've also seen Colt 6920's, etc. at Wal-Mart. It depends on the wal-mart.

Last edited by JWG223; 09-29-2014 at 10:28 PM..
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Old 09-29-2014, 09:27 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,572 posts, read 74,447,824 times
Reputation: 48004
most confrontations are at less than 10 feet. most common he has already assaulted the officer and tried to take his gun.
here is what the public does not get.
he is not paid to turn every arrest into a wrestling match. if he were they would hire and recruit from WWE, an arrest is not an invitation to an wrestling match. dont jump on people with a gun. now how hard can that be to understand?
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