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Sure. The first pistol my little wife ever fired was my Glock 21. First shot was a limp-wrist, the second and all of them after that weren't. She's not going to be REALLY ACCURATE if she has to suppress a terrorist fire team, but she can put 13 rounds within a pie plate of center mass with a couple of fliers very quickly inside of 10 yards .
So can I, with split times around .20-.24s.
Even with a carbine length rifle, she just doesn't fit on an AR15 all that well and isn't comfortable with it. She hunts with her shotgun, though.
However, in a dynamic situation, I found that I did NOT do that on people returning fire and using cover, etc. Noone I saw in that scenario (simunition building clearing) did. It was more like 0-30% on target (a human body, anywhere). It's absolutely amazing how bad the wheels can fall off the bus when things are flying back at you. Even things that might just hurt vs. maim.
However, in a dynamic situation, I found that I did NOT do that on people returning fire and using cover, etc. Noone I saw in that scenario (simunition building clearing) did. It was more like 0-30% on target (a human body, anywhere). It's absolutely amazing how bad the wheels can fall off the bus when things are flying back at you. Even things that might just hurt vs. maim.
That's a little beyond the scope of what I was getting at, which was to illustrate that a handgun suitable for home defense is probably going to be more intuitive for a new shooter to develop a basic proficiency with than an AR15 and, obviously, an AR isn't practical for daily carry nor is it a good option for ready access in a home with children.
A .20 split is pretty good, but that's not something that my wife is all that concerned about. She's armed and has the will to hurt someone in order to ensure that she can go home to her family, which is about all you can ask of most people.
I have 2 very good friends who have never shot an M4 before. Ever. Within about half a day, they were running VTAC 2-2-2 drills very effectively, and manipulating the weapons correctly, changing mags effectively, etc.
Pistols? They were not anywhere near as solid with. Pistols take a LOT! of training and time.
Yep. I don't understand how people think that pistols are easier to use/learn then a M4.
-I can use a hand-held light away from my body.
-I can use a phone while covering someone.
-I can fire a pistol while using cover much better than I can a rifle, (blading your body, you can make the muzzle of that pistol the first thing around a line of site, as it does not have to be planted on your shoulder).
What cover do you have in a modern home that will stop a bullet? Other then your fridge or a random brick wall or something, nothing. Besides, the reality of a home defense is that it is over in a few seconds, there is no taking cover or moving a flashlight a couple feet off your body or anything fancy like that. You won't be talking on the phone while shooting either, unless you want to end up in a body bag.
M4's don't have to be planted in a shoulder to be fired, in fact I can fire them one handed and keep the shots center mass. Requires some arm/shoulder strength but it's not hard. Put a short barrel on them and they can move around corners quite well.
Each to their own though, its you and your families lives, do with them what you please. All I will say is you will never see a SWAT team clear a house with pistols. And there is a reason the saying "The pistol is used to fight your way back to a rifle" exists.
What cover do you have in a modern home that will stop a bullet? Other then your fridge or a random brick wall or something, nothing. Besides, the reality of a home defense is that it is over in a few seconds, there is no taking cover or moving a flashlight a couple feet off your body or anything fancy like that. You won't be talking on the phone while shooting either, unless you want to end up in a body bag.
M4's don't have to be planted in a shoulder to be fired, in fact I can fire them one handed and keep the shots center mass. Requires some arm/shoulder strength but it's not hard. Put a short barrel on them and they can move around corners quite well.
Each to their own though, its you and your families lives, do with them what you please. All I will say is you will never see a SWAT team clear a house with pistols. And there is a reason the saying "The pistol is used to fight your way back to a rifle" exists.
I'd rather a bullet hit a wall before it gets to me. Ymmv. However, lots of people won't shoot through walls. It's very rare that they intentionally do. They perceive them as cover and act accordingly regardless of reality. Again, I'll take any advantage I can get. Even if it's the perps mindset working for me. They do over good concealment though, and I can exploit depth and angle far better with a handgun than a rifle allows.
Each home invasion is different. In a static position give me my benelli m4. If i had to move, pistol and handheld light. I've been very pleased with the results in simunitions training. I have no desire to practice with real bullets and sims is as close as you can get without playing for keeps.
You can hold an intruder at gunpoint and dial...
I am not HRT or swat. I would prefer a long gun ballistcally but sometimes a pistol is a better tool.
Because of Hollywood maybe. I don't know. Boggled.
Or it may be the compact and lightweight nature of a handgun coupled with its relative simplicity. If you're talking about developing the kind of proficiency to compete with Jessie Duff, then (duh) yes... You're talking about a volume of work that is likely to exceed the volume required to develop a similar proficiency with a rifle. But (also duh) if you're talking about getting to the point where you can fight with a weapon in the dark, work the action, load/reload/safe the weapon, one handed if need be, then I don't think it should be any boggle at all that a handgun is a far simpler platform to learn... And that it probably gives a smaller, weaker person a better chance of prevailing over a larger, stronger person in a VERY close encounter in, for example, the confines of a darkened bedroom or hallway than either a rifle or a shotgun. By way of illustration, if a diminutive woman is carrying a shotgun or an AR15 and I manage to surprise her, then it will be far easier for me to control the barrel of her long arm than it would be to control the barrel of her handgun. Just my $0.02.
Or it may be the compact and lightweight nature of a handgun coupled with its relative simplicity. If you're talking about developing the kind of proficiency to compete with Jessie Duff, then (duh) yes... You're talking about a volume of work that is likely to exceed the volume required to develop a similar proficiency with a rifle. But (also duh) if you're talking about getting to the point where you can fight with a weapon in the dark, work the action, load/reload/safe the weapon, one handed if need be, then I don't think it should be any boggle at all that a handgun is a far simpler platform to learn... And that it probably gives a smaller, weaker person a better chance of prevailing over a larger, stronger person in a VERY close encounter in, for example, the confines of a darkened bedroom or hallway than either a rifle or a shotgun. By way of illustration, if a diminutive woman is carrying a shotgun or an AR15 and I manage to surprise her, then it will be far easier for me to control the barrel of her long arm than it would be to control the barrel of her handgun. Just my $0.02.
I disagree on all points except 1-handed operation (in some cases), and the last, which would depend solely on your and her training. I could equip a 100# woman with the software to deal with you on the barrel of her rifle, no problem. Training is the issue, here, and 5 minutes solves that problem pretty well.
A handgun is no simpler than a rifle.It's harder to aim and harder to control, though.
A shotgun is probably the most complicated weapon to PROFICIENTLY run.
I disagree on all points except 1-handed operation (in some cases), and the last, which would depend solely on your and her training. I could equip a 100# woman with the software to deal with you on the barrel of her rifle, no problem. Training is the issue, here, and 5 minutes solves that problem pretty well.
A handgun is no simpler than a rifle.It's harder to aim and harder to control, though.
A shotgun is probably the most complicated weapon to PROFICIENTLY run.
I have considerable difficulty getting my brain around the notion that a shotgun is the most complicated weapon to run. We're obviously looking at this very, very differently. Do you mind explaining what you mean by that?
I've installed software that results in doubles on quail or duck with at least .35 splits, which is more dynamic and, arguably, more practical than a 2-2-2 in most if not all ways. Not that tricky to run proficiently, if you ask me.
Last edited by Cleonidas; 08-01-2014 at 07:00 PM..
I have considerable difficulty getting my brain around the notion that a shotgun is the most complicated weapon to run. We're obviously looking at this very, very differently. Do you mind explaining what you mean by that?
I've installed software that results in doubles on quail or duck with at least .35 splits, which is more dynamic and, arguably, more practical than a 2-2-2 in most if not all ways. Not that tricky to run proficiently, if you ask me.
Dumping a tube is not proficiently running the gun. It's shooting it dry.
Loading a shotgun takes a lot more time and motor control than a rifle or pistol, assuming we are talking magazine fed rifles and pistols. Also, a shotgun has a lot lower capacity. It runs dry fast. To complicate matters, you may wish to switch from buck to slug. This is an additional hassle. The pump action requires that you not short stroke it. The auto is much more forgiving in that regard. A shotgun is easy to dump downrange, but that's not my definition of proficiently running one. That's like saying you can drive well because you can accelerate and brake.
.35 splits on game is impressive.
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