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Old 09-12-2014, 12:55 AM
 
Location: so cal
1,110 posts, read 1,849,003 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
I would go with the LEO interpretation for when deadly force is OK: To protect yourself or another person from an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. That means don't shoot your burglar in the back as he's running out of your house screaming or the drunk guy outside the bar who wants to "kick your ass" but can hardly stand up.

Personally I wouldn't brandish for just any ordinary disagreement. Sure, a random asshat giving you a hard time might back off upon seeing a gun, but if they go running to the cops you can easily end up being seen as "the problem".
This^ in red. I'm a retired Deputy Sheriff and this is what will fly in court.
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Old 09-12-2014, 09:16 AM
 
896 posts, read 697,397 times
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At what point, in a confrontation, is it considered OK to simply lift your shirt and show that you are armed. Note that the intention is simply to defuse a situation. Is that considered brandishing or illegal?

Obviously, I would only condone this in a situation that wasn't escalated by the person carrying in the first place.
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Old 09-12-2014, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Tyler, TX
15,194 posts, read 17,699,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iowa4430 View Post
At what point, in a confrontation, is it considered OK to simply lift your shirt and show that you are armed. Note that the intention is simply to defuse a situation. Is that considered brandishing or illegal?
Brandishing laws will vary state to state and locality to locality. There is no one-size-fits-all answer to what is or is not brandishing.
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Old 09-12-2014, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
12,904 posts, read 18,464,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iowa4430 View Post
At what point, in a confrontation, is it considered OK to simply lift your shirt and show that you are armed. Note that the intention is simply to defuse a situation. Is that considered brandishing or illegal?

Obviously, I would only condone this in a situation that wasn't escalated by the person carrying in the first place.
When you feel an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury, like if he pulls out a knife or grabs a big metal pipe and starts coming toward you.

The problem is too many people would use it to "win" a verbal confrontation by trying to make the other guy back down. Chest-puffing is not a valid reason to brandish a gun.

While it isn't always illegal to just show you've got a gun it's very risky on your part. If the aggressor does decide to attack he now knows exactly where to go first, for one. Second (like I said earlier) he may hate to loose and run to the cops to report that you threatened him with a gun (which of course is a crime). You then end up in a "your word vs his" situation with the scales tipped in his favor because the cops will quickly know you really did have a gun on you.

The way to act is to de-escalate the situation... back down, repeatedly and loudly say you don't want to fight and work your way towards an exit to the situation. If that doesn't work, I'd say I am armed and will defend myself but I wouldn't show my weapon and I wouldn't say/do anything to make me look like the aggressor. If possible, I would call the Law before I pulled a gun (unless of course you have that imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury thing going on!).

Shooting someone in self-defense is an incredible nightmare to go though even when it's obviously justified... imagine what it would be like if it was a questionable situation! Guns should only come out as a last resort when immediate, decisive action is absolutely required.

Last edited by Chango; 09-12-2014 at 10:07 AM..
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Old 09-12-2014, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,774 posts, read 3,682,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
I would go with the LEO interpretation for when deadly force is OK: To protect yourself or another person from an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. That means don't shoot your burglar in the back as he's running out of your house screaming or the drunk guy outside the bar who wants to "kick your ass" but can hardly stand up.

Personally I wouldn't brandish for just any ordinary disagreement. Sure, a random asshat giving you a hard time might back off upon seeing a gun, but if they go running to the cops you can easily end up being seen as "the problem".
^^^ I agree with this post.

Unfortunately, in the Memphis situation, if the victims had shot one or more of the assailants there is the very real possibility they would have gone to jail and/or had to sell everything they owned to pay for the civil suit.

It would be portrayed in the media and by their parents as "just kids goofing off". I personally agree that a 20-on-1 fight would make me "fear for my life", but the media bias would swing to force imbalance of (gun >>> unarmed teen) instead of (gun < 20 unarmed teens). The beating looks bad, but none of the victims were hurt enough to even want to go to the hospital. Most likely "brandishing" would cause the mob to run, but what if it didn't? The danger with brandishing is, what if one or more called your bluff and dared you to shoot and half-jumped at you? Mobs don't act logically, and mob bravery is well-documented. Would you shoot an unarmed teen on camera on a dare? What if a group surrounded you daring you to shoot, and one reached out and touched your arm? You could argue fear-of-life or self-defense, but you would spend the rest of your life paying off the legal fees.


The Missouri case is less clear. Both victims had just come from a "nightclub" and (at least the woman) had likely been drinking. You are allowed to carry while drinking in Missouri as long as you aren't "intoxicated" (not defined, assumed to be 0.08). Assuming this is NOT simply a "restaurant where alcohol is served", possession would not have been allowed without permission of the owner, but that isn't a criminal offense. The man was an employee in the nightclub (DJ), so presumably he was not drinking. But assuming they weren't completely drunk a self-defense shooting would have been completely justified IMO.
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Old 09-14-2014, 09:52 AM
 
10,683 posts, read 17,042,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iowa4430 View Post
At what point, in a confrontation, is it considered OK to simply lift your shirt and show that you are armed. Note that the intention is simply to defuse a situation. Is that considered brandishing or illegal?
That depends on your state, if you're CCing and don't know the answer to that already you might want to refresh yourself on your state laws.
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Old 09-14-2014, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,441,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iowa4430 View Post
At what point, in a confrontation, is it considered OK to simply lift your shirt and show that you are armed. Note that the intention is simply to defuse a situation. Is that considered brandishing or illegal?

Obviously, I would only condone this in a situation that wasn't escalated by the person carrying in the first place.
In most states, that is brandishing, or threatening and is illegal. If you are going to pull it, pull it. If you show it, and don't pull it, they'll probably take it away from you. You have totally lost the element of surprise and that is what cc is all about.
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Old 09-14-2014, 01:20 PM
 
17,951 posts, read 9,863,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iowa4430 View Post
At what point, in a confrontation, is it considered OK to simply lift your shirt and show that you are armed. Note that the intention is simply to defuse a situation. Is that considered brandishing or illegal?

Obviously, I would only condone this in a situation that wasn't escalated by the person carrying in the first place.
In many states, that's called brandishing or "improper display of a firearm." That particular act might not be brandishing in every state, but AFAIK every state has some action it regards as "brandishing" or "improper display" or "improper exhibition" and is illegal.

If you have to reveal it at all, pull it with the intention of using it. If that immediate de-escalates the situation, then nobody dies that day. If you have to fire, aim for center mass.
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Old 09-14-2014, 01:42 PM
 
17,951 posts, read 9,863,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wartrace View Post
I can agree to that however I don't know how the law would look at it if you opened up on them from ten feet away. Look at what Zimmerman had to go through even though his head was being banged against concrete before he shot. Next thing you know some urban youths mother is on the news saying you didn't have to shoot her little choir boy son that was a good kid........
The primary problem with the Zimmerman case IMO is that Zimmerman was not simply walking down the street with his girlfriend. That case does not apply in any way to these.

Ten feet is nothing. The disparity of force is clear in both cases. What's worse, it only takes one solid punch or kick--one split second--to permanently disable or kill. That could have occurred in either case.

IMO, the question in the first case for either victim or bystander is judging the moment the situation went from hi-jinks to deadly. Tactically speaking, that transition might have happened too quickly for the victim even if he had been armed, but a bystander at the store entrance at the moment the victim was down would have been right to draw and be ready to fire in the very next instant.

The second situation is even more clear cut IMO for a bystander, but again, the tactical situation did not favor the victim. One of the paradoxes of being in a concealed carry state is that a group like that is going to attack in a manner designed to surprise and overwhelm an armed citizen.

Inasmuch as the boyfriend had been prompted to expect trouble, it might have been better to avoid it entirely, call the police, or take backup with him rather than going out looking for what his girlfriend had already told him were multiple assailants.
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Old 09-14-2014, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,088 posts, read 7,324,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
The primary problem with the Zimmerman case IMO is that Zimmerman was not simply walking down the street with his girlfriend. That case does not apply in any way to these.

Ten feet is nothing. The disparity of force is clear in both cases. What's worse, it only takes one solid punch or kick--one split second--to permanently disable or kill. That could have occurred in either case.

IMO, the question in the first case for either victim or bystander is judging the moment the situation went from hi-jinks to deadly. Tactically speaking, that transition might have happened too quickly for the victim even if he had been armed, but a bystander at the store entrance at the moment the victim was down would have been right to draw and be ready to fire in the very next instant.

The second situation is even more clear cut IMO for a bystander, but again, the tactical situation did not favor the victim. One of the paradoxes of being in a concealed carry state is that a group like that is going to attack in a manner designed to surprise and overwhelm an armed citizen.

Inasmuch as the boyfriend had been prompted to expect trouble, it might have been better to avoid it entirely, call the police, or take backup with him rather than going out looking for what his girlfriend had already told him were multiple assailants.
I notice muggings are frequently from the rear or other approach away from frontal view and just outside of peripheral vision. Which is why constant observation of surroundings is needed.
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