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Old 09-11-2014, 12:46 PM
 
896 posts, read 696,539 times
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I would like to hear input from the sane ones. The lawful gun owners on here. (not the uninformed, anti-gun, hand wringing leftist loons)

In the situation on the Kroger video and also the one where the Missouri couple are attacked by a group of thugs, I have a couple of questions:

1. at what point is it reasonable or justified for a bystander to unholster and address them?

2. At what point is it reasonable or justified for the victim to unholster and address the attackers?

Brutal Kroger parking lot attack caught on camera, Dir. Armstron - WFSB 3 Connecticut

Group of men captured on camera viciously assaulting couple in Missouri captured as police ask for public's help apprehending them | Mail Online
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Old 09-11-2014, 12:54 PM
 
8,124 posts, read 5,694,889 times
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I must need a nap because when I first read the title I thought it said "upholstering" your weapon.

Here in Texas, they could have been shot dead and would have been congratulated for taking out the garbage. Of course, civil lawsuit hell would likely commence at that point.

Last edited by War Beagle; 09-11-2014 at 01:41 PM..
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Wartrace,TN
5,270 posts, read 8,219,571 times
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I will answer the questions backwards.

2 - At what point is it reasonable or justified for the victim to unholster and address the attackers?

When you feel your life is in danger. I would claim disparity of force in the Kroger incident since there were multiple able bodied young men attacking individuals. I would pull the trigger if I was knocked to the ground and being kicked.

1 - At what point is it reasonable or justified for a bystander to unholster and address them?

This is a tough one to answer. While I would like to help a stranger in distress there is a LOT of liability in shooting someone that is not attacking you directly. On the other hand if it appeared the stranger was in danger of serious injury or death then it would be my moral obligation to help.

Personally I carry non-lethal weapons along with my firearm. I would probably spray the attacker with pepper spray first.
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Richmond
1,408 posts, read 699,315 times
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^^^^^^^ This ^^^^^^^

I agree with this 100%, also increased your REP Wartrace
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
12,899 posts, read 18,446,350 times
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I would go with the LEO interpretation for when deadly force is OK: To protect yourself or another person from an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. That means don't shoot your burglar in the back as he's running out of your house screaming or the drunk guy outside the bar who wants to "kick your ass" but can hardly stand up.

Personally I wouldn't brandish for just any ordinary disagreement. Sure, a random asshat giving you a hard time might back off upon seeing a gun, but if they go running to the cops you can easily end up being seen as "the problem".
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:41 PM
Status: "Gone hunting until December!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
10,945 posts, read 14,589,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wartrace View Post
I will answer the questions backwards.

2 - At what point is it reasonable or justified for the victim to unholster and address the attackers?

When you feel your life is in danger. I would claim disparity of force in the Kroger incident since there were multiple able bodied young men attacking individuals. I would pull the trigger if I was knocked to the ground and being kicked.

1 - At what point is it reasonable or justified for a bystander to unholster and address them?

This is a tough one to answer. While I would like to help a stranger in distress there is a LOT of liability in shooting someone that is not attacking you directly. On the other hand if it appeared the stranger was in danger of serious injury or death then it would be my moral obligation to help.

Personally I carry non-lethal weapons along with my firearm. I would probably spray the attacker with pepper spray first.
I would agree, however I think that if I was in a sceanrio like this and was armed- As soon as I recogized a 'group' approaching me in a threatening manner I would have been at the ready. I don't know if I would wait until I'm on the ground, because that's a bad place to be in any fight. Tough call, but I think my hand would have been firmly wrapped around my firearm pretty darned quickly.
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Old 09-11-2014, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Wartrace,TN
5,270 posts, read 8,219,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun View Post
I would agree, however I think that if I was in a sceanrio like this and was armed- As soon as I recogized a 'group' approaching me in a threatening manner I would have been at the ready. I don't know if I would wait until I'm on the ground, because that's a bad place to be in any fight. Tough call, but I think my hand would have been firmly wrapped around my firearm pretty darned quickly.
I can agree to that however I don't know how the law would look at it if you opened up on them from ten feet away. Look at what Zimmerman had to go through even though his head was being banged against concrete before he shot. Next thing you know some urban youths mother is on the news saying you didn't have to shoot her little choir boy son that was a good kid........
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:06 PM
Status: "Gone hunting until December!" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
10,945 posts, read 14,589,323 times
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Well let me clarify- I think it would have been drawn and I would be trying my darndest to be in a 'ready to fire' position when the mob started to converge on me. First swing and I think I would have shot.

I mean we're talking a mob attack. Hard to say you are NOT in fear for your life.

Man- hard to say what I would do, but I'm pretty sure I would have been drawing prior to hitting the ground (if I saw them coming).
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Old 09-11-2014, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Tyler, TX
15,194 posts, read 17,686,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
To protect yourself or another person from an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury.
That's the answer.
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,415,173 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
I would go with the LEO interpretation for when deadly force is OK: To protect yourself or another person from an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury.
While doing projects for the Government, I took Concealed Weapon classes in Virginia, Florida, Texas, and Wyoming. All four of those classes said this exact same thing, no matter what the circumstances.
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