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Old 01-10-2015, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Texas
5,586 posts, read 11,850,350 times
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You can make your own from a NAPA solvent trap filter complete with all parts for under 50 bucks. On a Remington 700 in 308 using TTI Subsonic 170gr ammo, all you hear is the hammer drop when shooting it. You CANNOT silence supersonic ammo, it must be subsonic. Hears a vid on making one although the vid maker is a little weird.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z5vAZSufiE
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Old 01-11-2015, 08:21 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,614,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperL View Post
You can make your own from a NAPA solvent trap filter complete with all parts for under 50 bucks. On a Remington 700 in 308 using TTI Subsonic 170gr ammo, all you hear is the hammer drop when shooting it. You CANNOT silence supersonic ammo, it must be subsonic. Hears a vid on making one although the vid maker is a little weird.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z5vAZSufiE
In America, doing so without filing a Form 1 is a quick trip to the gray-bar hotel.
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Old 01-11-2015, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,428,561 times
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Originally Posted by wintersbone View Post
OP I seriously dought you have a [Mod cut] clue how difficult it is to machine onconel. And how much materials cost.
Early in life I became a certified machine, so I do know a little something about costs. The first few were probably cranked out by hand and run in the range of tens of thousand per unit. Once it was figured out, a CAD engineer mic'd everything out so a drawing could be produced. Drawing is
loaded in to CNC type equip!mention and then they were produced at about $200 each. But that doesn't make one iota of difference.

50 years ago, you and I produced a widget. We totaled up cost of material, labor, even figured out equipment replacement, cost of power and water and toilet paper. Then we added 30% and put it on the shelf. Not so today. Today, we produce a widget and then conduct a study on what the market will bear. How much are people willing to pay? That's the price. Then, you and I change modes and try and figure out how to cut costs. New CNC, better assembly line configuration, faster equipment, cheaper material, etc.

The bottom line is, profit, and profit is based on what John Q Public, is willing to pay, not on material, labor, etc... I'd bet that can costs less than $200 to produce.
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Last edited by ElkHunter; 01-11-2015 at 08:20 PM..
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Old 01-12-2015, 07:27 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,614,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Early in life I became a certified machine, so I do know a little something about costs. The first few were probably cranked out by hand and run in the range of tens of thousand per unit. Once it was figured out, a CAD engineer mic'd everything out so a drawing could be produced. Drawing is
loaded in to CNC type equip!mention and then they were produced at about $200 each. But that doesn't make one iota of difference.

50 years ago, you and I produced a widget. We totaled up cost of material, labor, even figured out equipment replacement, cost of power and water and toilet paper. Then we added 30% and put it on the shelf. Not so today. Today, we produce a widget and then conduct a study on what the market will bear. How much are people willing to pay? That's the price. Then, you and I change modes and try and figure out how to cut costs. New CNC, better assembly line configuration, faster equipment, cheaper material, etc.

The bottom line is, profit, and profit is based on what John Q Public, is willing to pay, not on material, labor, etc... I'd bet that can costs less than $200 to produce.
Maybe the garage quality stuff you're talking about, yes, but US Cert high 700 series inconel cores and tubes? QD mechanisms? Repeatable and minimal POI shifts? Welding everything correctly? Wire EDM bores? Let's put it this way, the system that Surefire uses to certify/meter their suppressors alone costs around $40K.

If making a suppressor were so cheap and easy, the SOCOM contract would have been something DOZENS of manufacturers would have submitted suppressors for. As it is, about 3-4 companies dominate US military suppressor manufacture---and none of them are selling Uncle Sam "cheap" suppressors. If a cheap can did fine, some guy in his garage would be supplying after he got a few buddies and some sort of assembly setup.

You have to factor all of this into the equation as "cost", as well.

Again, yeah, you can take some stainless baffles, and make a crude suppressor in your garage. The POI shift will be what it is. Suppression will likely be decent. Weight will be 19-24oz on the light end. It will be a thread-on. Flash suppression and backpressure will probably suck. It should be relatively durable based on your "brute force" construction method, and yeah, it could probably be done for $200 in materials and going-rates for labor, not counting production equipment, etc.

But would it be as good as AAC/Gemtech/SF/KAC? Not by a long shot.

Last edited by JWG223; 01-12-2015 at 07:39 AM..
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Old 01-12-2015, 07:31 AM
 
Location: Florida
4,103 posts, read 4,013,315 times
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There is a great deal of R&D cost that goes into each supressor, all of which is incurred by each individual manufacturer. Its not like an AR-15 which was developed decades ago and all manufacturers are doing is pumping them out with a few slight tweeks. Each supressor has to be engineered just right so that it performs as expected.
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Old 01-12-2015, 07:46 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,614,148 times
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Originally Posted by thatguydownsouth View Post
There is a great deal of R&D cost that goes into each supressor, all of which is incurred by each individual manufacturer. Its not like an AR-15 which was developed decades ago and all manufacturers are doing is pumping them out with a few slight tweeks. Each supressor has to be engineered just right so that it performs as expected.
Exactly. Baffles tailored to the performance profiles desired, etc. is just one aspect.
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Old 01-12-2015, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,773 posts, read 3,679,948 times
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The problem with suppressors is that the "budget" end of the market has been eliminated by the $200 tax stamp, and the fact that suppressors aren't necessary to use a firearm. In most markets you have a range of items from high-end to budget. In cars you can get a $12,000 Chevy Spark or a $100,000 Land Rover. It would be like if all cars had a $36,000 tax, and everywhere around you was fully accessible with public transportation. Would you bother with a budget car where the tax cost more than the car itself, or would you just use public transportation (i.e., ear plugs)? The only people with cars are the ones who can afford the high-end models. In this world, the Chevy Spark would never get made because it would never sell.

For a real-world example, suppressors are completely non-regulated in New Zealand. Anyone can build and sell suppressors all day long. Top-of-the-line suppressors there run about what they do here, but there you can get budget .22LR models for $50. This guy makes and sells custom suppressors that look like they could have their own Orange County Chopper style "reality show", and he starts at $85 (about $70 in US dollars) for a basic slim-line .22 can.

What does $70 get you in the USA? Nothing. But find an extra $5 and you can get a thread adapter with a serial number attached (assuming shipping is similar). But then you still have to buy a specialty fuel/oil filter (long and narrow) so you can use normal sights ($40), AND you still need the $200 tax stamp, fingerprints, and many months of waiting. AND, if you burn out the filter innards you cannot legally replace it yourself. You have to pay to ship the filter to a Class 2 manufacturer who will swap out the filter for a fee.

Other adds to suppressor costs in the USA:
- $millions spent each year lobbying congress and state legislatures to open up suppressor laws. The guy above has probably never spent a dime on lobbying.
- Advertising... Ads in glossy mags aren't cheap!
- Costs to be registered and legal as an NFA Class 2 manufacturer.
- CNC machinery to mass-produce precision parts at excruciatingly tight tolerances.
- The aforementioned product testing, development, experimentation, "Shot Show" booths with booth-babes, etc.

Once all these costs are included, it just doesn't make business sense to make and sell a budget aluminum can for $50 with $5 per unit profit, when by the time it gets to the consumer the total cost will be $300+ (shipping, transfer, state taxes, etc.).

So you get exotic metals (titanium, inconel), fancy advertising, and overpriced fluff.

Last edited by jwkilgore; 01-12-2015 at 11:28 AM..
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Old 01-12-2015, 02:50 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,614,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
The problem with suppressors is that the "budget" end of the market has been eliminated by the $200 tax stamp, and the fact that suppressors aren't necessary to use a firearm. In most markets you have a range of items from high-end to budget. In cars you can get a $12,000 Chevy Spark or a $100,000 Land Rover. It would be like if all cars had a $36,000 tax, and everywhere around you was fully accessible with public transportation. Would you bother with a budget car where the tax cost more than the car itself, or would you just use public transportation (i.e., ear plugs)? The only people with cars are the ones who can afford the high-end models. In this world, the Chevy Spark would never get made because it would never sell.

I believe there was a $200 5.56 suppressor that fit about the bill I described as "garage made".


For a real-world example, suppressors are completely non-regulated in New Zealand. Anyone can build and sell suppressors all day long. Top-of-the-line suppressors there run about what they do here, but there you can get budget .22LR models for $50. This guy makes and sells custom suppressors that look like they could have their own Orange County Chopper style "reality show", and he starts at $85 (about $70 in US dollars) for a basic slim-line .22 can.

Yeah, but look at labor costs, etc. What about similar items in NZ? I mean, material/mechanics wise. Say...a hand-made knife? I bet those are much cheaper, too, regulations aside...

What does $70 get you in the USA? Nothing. But find an extra $5 and you can get a thread adapter with a serial number attached (assuming shipping is similar). But then you still have to buy a specialty fuel/oil filter (long and narrow) so you can use normal sights ($40), AND you still need the $200 tax stamp, fingerprints, and many months of waiting. AND, if you burn out the filter innards you cannot legally replace it yourself. You have to pay to ship the filter to a Class 2 manufacturer who will swap out the filter for a fee.

Other adds to suppressor costs in the USA:
- $millions spent each year lobbying congress and state legislatures to open up suppressor laws. The guy above has probably never spent a dime on lobbying. Correct, although I do vote for key officials, and suppressor hunting legality has expanded greatly. ALso note NFA laws are not likely to loosen on the federal end.
- Advertising... Ads in glossy mags aren't cheap!
- Costs to be registered and legal as an NFA Class 2 manufacturer. I'm not sure, but I doubt they are bad enough to impact an entire production volume.
- CNC machinery to mass-produce precision parts at excruciatingly tight tolerances. Yep!
- The aforementioned product testing, development, experimentation, "Shot Show" booths with booth-babes, etc. SHOT and booth babes...negligible.

Once all these costs are included, it just doesn't make business sense to make and sell a budget aluminum can for $50 with $5 per unit profit, when by the time it gets to the consumer the total cost will be $300+ (shipping, transfer, state taxes, etc.).

So you get exotic metals (titanium, inconel), fancy advertising, and overpriced fluff.

You hit on part of it, but not all of it.
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Old 01-12-2015, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,773 posts, read 3,679,948 times
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I'm trying to point out that, if import and manufacturing restrictions were lifted along with the NFA tax, it would be very possible to create and sell a line of serviceable aluminum or carbon steel suppressors for well under $100. Upgrade to stainless for a little more. I'd buy one tomorrow. Will they be as cheap as a guy working out of his backyard shop in New Zealand? Of course they would, because you'd have entrepreneurs all over this country setting up backyard shops!

But right now there is simply no way for a manufacturer to comply with all laws and still be able to manufacture and sell a functional $50 .22LR plinking suppressor that you have to pay a 400% tax on. And if he did no one would buy it. If I'm going to the trouble of filling out all the paperwork, waiting many months, and paying a $200 tax, I'm going to get a decent model that will last forever and be rated for the highest-power hunting cartridge I may ever buy.

Of course, if you want sub-MOA POI shifts or max performance super-light-weight models carved out of exotic superalloys (inconel? seriously?) then your price tags will go up to where they are now. Competition shooters pay big $$$$ for high-end rigs, they would do the same for high-end suppressors.

You're trying to explain how expensive it is to custom make a $4000 F-class competition rifle and use that as justification for why a $165 Savage Rascal cannot possibly exist.
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Old 01-12-2015, 10:50 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,614,148 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
I'm trying to point out that, if import and manufacturing restrictions were lifted along with the NFA tax, it would be very possible to create and sell a line of serviceable aluminum or carbon steel suppressors for well under $100. Upgrade to stainless for a little more. I'd buy one tomorrow. Will they be as cheap as a guy working out of his backyard shop in New Zealand? Of course they would, because you'd have entrepreneurs all over this country setting up backyard shops!
You would also have a lot more suppressor failures as well.

But right now there is simply no way for a manufacturer to comply with all laws and still be able to manufacture and sell a functional $50 .22LR plinking suppressor that you have to pay a 400% tax on. And if he did no one would buy it. If I'm going to the trouble of filling out all the paperwork, waiting many months, and paying a $200 tax, I'm going to get a decent model that will last forever and be rated for the highest-power hunting cartridge I may ever buy.
^Pretty much.

Of course, if you want sub-MOA POI shifts or max performance super-light-weight models carved out of exotic superalloys (inconel? seriously?) then your price tags will go up to where they are now. Competition shooters pay big $$$$ for high-end rigs, they would do the same for high-end suppressors.
Yes, inconel.

You're trying to explain how expensive it is to custom make a $4000 F-class competition rifle and use that as justification for why a $165 Savage Rascal cannot possibly exist.
No, I agree that a "cheap" suppressor can exist. You can already buy a $199 5.56 suppressor right now, IIRC, that works pretty well. It's just heavy, made of stainless, thread-on.
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