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Old 01-27-2015, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Texas
1,114 posts, read 859,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
Perhaps you also believe a testing / permitting process might be a good idea before you can exercise your freedom of speech rights as well? Or practice a religion. How about a test before you can vote? ( on second thought, that's not a bad idea.... )

Putting road-blocks and barriers in front of a citizens ability to exercise a Right only gives the government more leeway to arbitrarily deny that Right. It's never a good idea. Never.
That's not good analogy, a gun is a deadly item and should be taught on how to handle it.
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Old 01-27-2015, 10:02 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,886 posts, read 12,543,418 times
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ftbll, some people can be helped if you do it softly, and maybe show them how to handle the firearm in a safe manner. I do not think that they are there to get hurt or to hurt anyone else, plus you can point out to them that safely handling firearms benefits everyone at the range, no matter what platform people are shooting from.
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Old 01-27-2015, 01:08 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,300 posts, read 10,454,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
ftbll, some people can be helped if you do it softly, and maybe show them how to handle the firearm in a safe manner. I do not think that they are there to get hurt or to hurt anyone else, plus you can point out to them that safely handling firearms benefits everyone at the range, no matter what platform people are shooting from.
Without a doubt. I am always polite, but never shy about addressing safety shortfalls and giving suggestions about proper weapons handling. Most of the time people are receptive, especially if you are polite. I've had a few roll their eyes. Some people refuse to be helped, I guess. We have shooter ID cards issued now, so it's easy to report people who won't correct safety violations.
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Old 01-27-2015, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,951 posts, read 10,317,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Without a doubt. I am always polite, but never shy about addressing safety shortfalls and giving suggestions about proper weapons handling. Most of the time people are receptive, especially if you are polite. I've had a few roll their eyes. Some people refuse to be helped, I guess. We have shooter ID cards issued now, so it's easy to report people who won't correct safety violations.
I think an important part of the responsibility of a Right is to call out those who aren't acting properly. They may roll their eyes when you correct them but I bet what you say sticks with them in the end.
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Old 01-27-2015, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,951 posts, read 10,317,512 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeGer View Post
That's not good analogy, a gun is a deadly item and should be taught on how to handle it.
How many people have died throughout history in the name of religion? How many have used speech to incite atrocities?

It's either a Right or it's not. If it's a Right though, it's unconditional. It can't be a Right, but treated like a privilege. Anyone who wants to exercise their Right to own a firearm should seek out proper safety and handling training voluntarily, but requiring it is a no-go.
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Old 01-27-2015, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
8,878 posts, read 4,832,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeGer View Post
That's not good analogy, a gun is a deadly item and should be taught on how to handle it.
Ahh, but it is because guns are part of the bill of rights and other examples that are often used are not.

It is like putting prostitution and making adult films on the same level of legality because they are both about sex. The former is often illegal but the latter is part of the bill of rights, freedom of speech, and is therefore legal. While their actions may seem the same, in the eyes of the law, they are different.

But back to guns themselves.

OP, are the people you are observing, are they actually using AR-10's?
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Old 01-27-2015, 03:24 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,300 posts, read 10,454,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post

OP, are the people you are observing, are they actually using AR-10's?
Both, actually. The AR-10 people tend to be more experienced shooters from what I can observe, though they still always seem to roll in with a force capable of occupying a small country. (Perhaps that is a mild exaggeration. ) While I can appreciate a "first come, first served" policy on my range facility, I consider it bad form to show up with a group large enough to shut down the entire rifle bench. If you need the whole thing, contact the club and arrange a private function. (Which is actually a club rule.)

Those I've discerned are newer shooters seem to stick with the 15. Which makes sense because 5.56 is much more affordable than .308 or .243 (you can still find 10s chambered in .243). And of course, they swarm the bench in numbers sufficient to dislodge the Nazis from their bunkers in Normandy.

Why do you ask?
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Old 01-27-2015, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
8,878 posts, read 4,832,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
Both, actually. The AR-10 people tend to be more experienced shooters from what I can observe, though they still always seem to roll in with a force capable of occupying a small country. (Perhaps that is a mild exaggeration. ) While I can appreciate a "first come, first served" policy on my range facility, I consider it bad form to show up with a group large enough to shut down the entire rifle bench. If you need the whole thing, contact the club and arrange a private function. (Which is actually a club rule.)

Those I've discerned are newer shooters seem to stick with the 15. Which makes sense because 5.56 is much more affordable than .308 or .243 (you can still find 10s chambered in .243). And of course, they swarm the bench in numbers sufficient to dislodge the Nazis from their bunkers in Normandy.

Why do you ask?
Because of what I said earlier, that to me, the AR-10 is too powerful for a newbie to be interested in long. Some might say it is the recoil, to me it is the WHOMP! when it hurls a round down range, but both between that and the weight, the need of focus of mind, of strength to keep it on target for very long, it seems too much of a gun for a newbie shooter to be interested in long.

As to anything else, we appear to shoot in different worlds. Mine is an indoor range with lanes. I tend to come in alone but I do tend to hold on to a lane for at least an hour if not 3-4. Depends on how frequent I can shoot.

So my question here is, am I the kind of person you might detest when I hold onto a lane for 3-4 hours, switching from pistol to rifle and back again, different bouts, running my target back after each bout, evaluating and recording my hits, taping up the paper man, and sending him back down range again.

Time is time and perhaps it doesn't matter if it is because of a lot of newbies or one dedicated shooter.
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Old 01-27-2015, 04:33 PM
PDD
 
Location: The Sand Hills of NC
8,776 posts, read 14,146,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
A few days ago I was at my range facility hoping to get some trigger time on a Savage bolt action .243. I always anticipate the facility being in use by other shooters, so I bring options with me every time I go. On this day I brought my 1911 .45 and a .22 magnum bolt action (also a Savage).

When I arrived I saw the rifle range was pretty full, but the first pistol range was empty. On that bench you can shoot pistol or rimfire rifles, so it was a good place to start. I spent a good amount of time firing my .45 and .22 magnum and finally used up all my ammo for those two. I could hear from the sounds the rifle range still had a lot of activity.

When I transitioned down to the rifle range I realized I wasn't going to be doing any centerfire rifle shooting that day. The bench had about 7 or 8 people on it, which is pretty close to capacity at my club. Here is where the minor rant begins. Everyone on the bench was shooting AR-10/15s. This is a trend I've noticed. The AR crowd always rolls up 5 or 6 deep and camps out for an obscene length of time. It wouldn't be so bad, but it's pretty obvious many of these shooters are new to gun ownership and shooting in general.

Now let me pause to say this: I am not anti-AR. In fact, I have one of my own. I also credit the platform's immense popularity with bringing in new blood to the gun owner community. For all the negative press this platform has been given, it has piqued the curiosity of many. A lot of people put down the HALO controllers and went out to try their hand at a real weapon. A lot of U.S. service members left the military and bought this platform to build their own customized weapon. And, a lot of people who have always been interesting in the military but never actually served in the military wanted to own the "cool, military gun."

Like I said, this is both good and bad. It's good because more guns in the right hands is a good thing as a whole. But the growing popularity of the AR platform comes with some serious drawbacks, too. And the day I tried to shoot really highlighted some of those drawbacks.

Two of the shooters were men in their early 40s. They had all the fancy equipment, 5.11 gear (never understood why a simple day at the range requires wearing fatigues, but whatever makes them feel better, I guess) range finders, etc. They appeared to know what they were doing, so this I can appreciate. The remainder was one group, each of whom appeared to be in their 20s. In the few seconds I was there I saw enough to determine I wanted no part of this bench as long as they were there.

One guy fired off a few rounds from an AR, then with the bolt forward, magazine inserted and without placing the weapon on "safe" he handed it off to his buddy. I'll give him some credit for keeping the muzzle oriented in the right direction, but handing off a loaded weapon on fire and with a round in the chamber is a big no-no. Also, one girl ripped off about 7-10 rounds way too quickly to be following the proper cycle and regaining proper sight alignment/picture. She was shooting at a 2x2 foot target at just 50 meters. She stopped shooting, failed to clear the weapon or place it on safe, picked up some binos, then announced, "I don't think I am even hitting the paper." A third weapon was laying on a case, ejection port down, magazine inserted, muzzle oriented toward the pistol range just a few yards away.

That was all I needed to see. These were clearly not experienced shooters and their weapons handling was abysmal. I did ask them to show the inactive weapon was clear and oriented in a safer direction, and advised they clear weapons before handing them off. But I had no desire to share space with them.

Unfortunately what I witnessed that day was not an isolated event. The AR platform has brought in some new blood, but a lot of them appear to be first time gun owners. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, but I wish those who fit this description would bring in a more experienced shooter to give them some coaching. Plus it just makes for some frustrating days at the range. Their weapons handling and bench etiquette is often lacking (to put it politely). And they never shoot alone: there is always a group of 4 or 5 or more.

It is bad enough at my club that I am going to start campaigning for a "semi-auto restricted" rifle range where ARs are not allowed.

I am curious if any others have observed this and have similar observations. Or maybe I am an anomaly.
g

We have the same thing happening at the range where I shoot. We only have one person working the range and more than once he has complained to me about the young guys that come in piled into the back of their pickups. We have a no smoking rule at the range and these guys just don't care. Our range guy is a retired Marine but he is a mild mannered fellow and I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to get into it with these guys. It sounds funny when the Southern born range officer says "here come those rednecks.
"
We have a beautiful outdoor pistol and rifle ranges that are operated by the state at no cost to the shooters. It would be a shame if the place got closed down because of some unruly people.

On the other hand we do have some senior gentleman with some beautiful AR's and I have been lucky enough that many have offered their guns to me to try out.

To answer you question, yes it's happening here.
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Old 01-27-2015, 06:04 PM
Status: "Rocktober...well that was fast. :-(" (set 21 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
10,300 posts, read 10,454,166 times
Reputation: 13249
Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
So my question here is, am I the kind of person you might detest when I hold onto a lane for 3-4 hours, switching from pistol to rifle and back again, different bouts, running my target back after each bout, evaluating and recording my hits, taping up the paper man, and sending him back down range again.

Time is time and perhaps it doesn't matter if it is because of a lot of newbies or one dedicated shooter.
If you are using an indoor range you are probably paying by the hour. I don't have anything against that; it's your money. I have an outdoor "members only" facility. It is first come, first served, and I don't mind anyone staying as long as they want. It's the large groups that clog up the whole bench AND stay for a really long time that I find lacking in courtesy to other club members. And as I have said a few times now, it always seems to be the AR crowd doing this. If they need the whole bench they need to reserve the facility, something that would be on the club's calendar and other shooters would know to plan around it.

@PPD,

I feel your pain. One thing my club recently did was institute a "2 guests per member" rule. Shooting members are required to wear a range card, so in a group of 6 shooters, there had better be 2 visible range cards or someone will be required to leave. I'm not a confrontational person, but I wouldn't hesitate to tell a group not abiding by this rule that they needed to clear out. I pay my dues and not so some other jack***** can bring all his buddies in and jam up the bench. If they want to shoot, join the club and pay dues!
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