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Old 01-30-2015, 11:05 PM
 
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Theoretically, could shotguns be used for bear defense or would the bear have to be too close to be effective?
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Old 01-31-2015, 04:33 AM
 
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For bear defense, a side arm of Smith & Wesson large caliber magnum revolver would be a good option?
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Old 01-31-2015, 07:29 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txjl123 View Post
If I carry this Norinco AK Hunter (Norinco modified a military AK-47 into a hunting rifle) into Alaska bear country, would it be adequate for both hunting and bear defense? Or it's no good for either?

I know a guy who kills Brown bear often for a living (He is Alaskan LEO, and they are often called when a bear needs killing).

He used to use an 870 with Brenneke slugs.
Now he uses a .308 SCAR 17 using I believe 180gr Barnes bullets.

I would not feel good with a X39 in Alaska. I'd draw the floor at .308 if you used good ammo like the solid copper stuff from Barnes or Hornady. It penetrates extremely well and leaves very impressive permanent wound tracts.
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Old 01-31-2015, 07:31 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txjl123 View Post
For bear defense, a side arm of Smith & Wesson large caliber magnum revolver would be a good option?
I would honestly wonder if bear spray wouldn't be a good move instead. My reason being that a bear will not walk up to you and slap you in the face. It is going to charge you. Your chances of bleeding a bear out or breaking heavy bones with even a large caliber revolver are not so hot. Accuracy, moving target, scared to death shooter, all come into play, there. Then there is distance. If you are shooting a bear with a pistol, it's charging you. You aren't going to be sniping at it from 100 yards off---that's not "defense".

I'm not saying DON'T have the revolver, I'm just saying that paper ballistics and "plans" are going to probably fall on their face in the real world when a large Brown decides to charge you. The bear spray might work better. Statistically, it does, at least.
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Old 01-31-2015, 08:46 AM
 
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A bear has a pretty big head.....it's a large target. A direct hit that enters the brain on that large skull would kill the animal almost instantly. If it didn't just keep firing until it goes down.
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Old 01-31-2015, 09:11 AM
Status: "Beach time!" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Fredericksburg/Virginia Beach, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCP Island View Post
A bear has a pretty big head.....it's a large target. A direct hit that enters the brain on that large skull would kill the animal almost instantly. If it didn't just keep firing until it goes down.
But the skull is the problem more so than the bullet. The slope of a bear's skull makes for a very high likelihood of a ricochet, much the same way kevlar helmets used by the U.S. military work. Also, when we're talking "defense" we're talking in context of a charging bear. Even the big bears are deceptively fast. They can close 100 feet before even some good shooters can shoulder their weapon, get good sight alignment/sight picture, and a well placed shot off. Plus a running bear means the head is bobbing up and down with its bounds, making this shot pretty challenging, especially under duress.
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Old 01-31-2015, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCP Island View Post
A bear has a pretty big head.....it's a large target. A direct hit that enters the brain on that large skull would kill the animal almost instantly. If it didn't just keep firing until it goes down.
A direct hit on a bears skull is one tough shot in a situation where you may have 800-1,200lbs of snarling massive teeth behind a really bad attitude, powered by a motor that won't quit, equipped with front legs with the same power as skid steer arms who is hell bent on removing you from your 2x2ft plot on the earth.

Your adrenaline has dropped like a garden hose, your standing there with a Norinco 7.62 and your hoping you can take out natures machine from Hell with a well placed head shot.

If it's me and I had a choice of firearms- It's a big .45-70 loaded specifically for this task and I'm aiming for anything along the CNS line and praying to God it stops it.

However my personal first line of defense would be bear spray.

Here's a great interview with two guys here in MT that got really lucky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_wzV0k77hQ

Last edited by Threerun; 01-31-2015 at 09:40 AM..
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Old 01-31-2015, 10:28 AM
 
141 posts, read 122,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iknowftbll View Post
But the skull is the problem more so than the bullet. The slope of a bear's skull makes for a very high likelihood of a ricochet, much the same way kevlar helmets used by the U.S. military work. Also, when we're talking "defense" we're talking in context of a charging bear. Even the big bears are deceptively fast. They can close 100 feet before even some good shooters can shoulder their weapon, get good sight alignment/sight picture, and a well placed shot off. Plus a running bear means the head is bobbing up and down with its bounds, making this shot pretty challenging, especially under duress.
U.S. Marines use their imagination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun View Post
A direct hit on a bears skull is one tough shot in a situation where you may have 800-1,200lbs of snarling massive teeth behind a really bad attitude, powered by a motor that won't quit, equipped with front legs with the same power as skid steer arms who is hell bent on removing you from your 2x2ft plot on the earth.

Your adrenaline has dropped like a garden hose, your standing there with a Norinco 7.62 and your hoping you can take out natures machine from Hell with a well placed head shot.


If it's me and I had a choice of firearms- It's a big .45-70 loaded specifically for this task and I'm aiming for anything along the CNS line and praying to God it stops it.

However my personal first line of defense would be bear spray.

Here's a great interview with two guys here in MT that got really lucky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_wzV0k77hQ



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCmXHX5YjIw




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHF3O3K3EuI

Last edited by OCP Island; 01-31-2015 at 10:40 AM..
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Old 01-31-2015, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,791 posts, read 3,884,121 times
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Bear spray: I assumed this was a given. Never go into serious bear country without bear spray.
Large-bore handgun: Better than no gun, but not as good as a short rifle. UNLESS... you always have the handgun with you in situations where the long gun would be inaccessible.


Veering off topic again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
I think you are confusing inherent accuracy with trajectory. You are quite right that the same bullet fired at the same velocity from either rifle will have the same trajectory.

I don't have a good reference at hand, but common knowledge is that if you got say 20 Ruger bolt guns in 308 and 20 more in 30-06, scope them up and shoot for example Federal Match ammo in each gun (you can tell why this experiment has not been done and documented, right? Would be a long day at the bench) the *average* group size for the 308s would be a bit better.
"Common knowledge" is rarely "common", and no, I'm not confusing the two. The same bullet fired down the same quality barrel at the same velocity will have the same trajectory and accuracy. The fact that one started in a 51mm case and the other started in a 63mm case is irrelevant.

Also, your experiment has been done and documented: The Rifleman's Journal: Cartridges: Sibling Rivalry: .308 vs. .30-06
Only four identical match-grade rifles with identical setups instead of 40, but many thousands of rounds down-range instead of just a few groups. His conclusion: The .308 has a very slight edge at mid ranges, and the.30-06 has a very slight edge at long range.

The .30-06 does kick quite a bit more, however, and the long-action is slightly more flexible. The average shooter will, therefore, be more accurate with the .308. This does not mean the cartridge is more accurate, just that the shooter is more accurate with the cartridge.

Last edited by jwkilgore; 01-31-2015 at 10:43 AM..
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Old 01-31-2015, 10:43 AM
 
141 posts, read 122,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
Bear spray: I assumed this was a given. Never go into serious bear country without bear spray.
Large-bore handgun: Better than no gun, but not near as good as a short rifle.


Veering off topic again:
"Common knowledge" is rarely "common", and no, I'm not confusing the two. The same bullet fired down the same quality barrel at the same velocity will have the same trajectory and accuracy. The fact that one started in a 51mm case and the other started in a 63mm case is irrelevant.

Also, your experiment has been done and documented: The Rifleman's Journal: Cartridges: Sibling Rivalry: .308 vs. .30-06
Only four identical match-grade rifles with identical setups instead of 40, but many thousands of rounds down-range instead of just a few groups. His conclusion: The .308 has a very slight edge at mid ranges, and the.30-06 has a very slight edge at long range.

The .30-06 does kick quite a bit more, however, and the long-action is slightly more flexible. The average shooter will, therefore, be more accurate with the .308. This does not mean the cartridge is more accurate, just that the shooter is more accurate with the cartridge.
Many of these 7.62x51 or (.308) rifles I posted can and will do sub 1/2 MOA at 100 yards or you send it back. You got a lemon or a turd and it needs addressed or fixed.
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