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Old 02-15-2015, 01:48 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,886 posts, read 12,536,143 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxPhd View Post
Seems like a very odd scope to pair with that rifle.


one of the techs i talked with at Barrett suggested it, and it works for my daughter so far.
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Old 02-15-2015, 06:27 AM
 
Location: Lakewood Ranch, FL
5,112 posts, read 7,639,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
What you are concerned with is called external ballistics. It is what happens between the time the bullet leaves the barrel and it impacts the target. For instance, humidity is not a factor at 1000 meters and less, yet it is a factor past 1000 meters. The humidity can be drastically different at the target. So every time you go out to zero, the range is different. There went the tables you built last week when you were out burning powder. There just isn't any reliable tables, that are usable. Gun manufacturers have calculators, as well as there are ballistic tables put out by ammo manufacturers. Those calculators are fairly close and are derived from doppler radar testing. But, that is internal ballistics and projected results.

Obviously you understand that if I made you 5 bull barrels, and warrenteed them at 1/2 inch at 100 yards, those would be tight barrels, but each one would shoot differently and each one would respond differently to each bullet weight, each type of powder, each amount of powder. a you can do the math, if you draw a radius of .5 at the target, now add the other factors and you should stay within that radius. Maybe one type of powder would always put you in a particular quadrant. You can now do the math to predict what your bullet should do when you calculate where that bullet is going to drift at 100, 500, and even 1000 yards. Those factors are fairly negligible out to 1000, however, their faults really kick in when you look at 1000+. Let's throw in another fuge factor. When you compete, in order to keep things fair, the range furnishes the ammo. Do you know what they are going to furnish this week? How old is it? How was stored?

Remember, every barrel, every action is going to handle a particular shell differently. That is all internal ballistics and can be calculated to some point. But it is still a prediction. you can't even start a dope table until you start factoring in external ballistics and then you are talking over 100 variables that have to be factored in. Even, earths spin.
That's pretty interesting. I didn't realize that the variables were so many or so influential. I knew about air pressure, temperature, humidity, wind changes, even Coriolis, but didn't know some of the other things or how difficult it was to predict. I guess I thought you just plugged in the data and calculated the angle, so to speak, using the scope. I don't own a rifle and have never fired one at anything that far away but I learn tidbits here and on TV, on YouTube, websites, etc. just because it's all interesting to me. After reading this, it's amazing that there is a 2700 yd. combat shot on record.
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Old 02-15-2015, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,410,165 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbronston View Post
That's pretty interesting. I didn't realize that the variables were so many or so influential. I knew about air pressure, temperature, humidity, wind changes, even Coriolis, but didn't know some of the other things or how difficult it was to predict. I guess I thought you just plugged in the data and calculated the angle, so to speak, using the scope. I don't own a rifle and have never fired one at anything that far away but I learn tidbits here and on TV, on YouTube, websites, etc. just because it's all interesting to me. After reading this, it's amazing that there is a 2700 yd. combat shot on record.
Along with long shots, something that always impressed me was approach and escape. There was a guy in Viet Nam that was sent in to take out a NoVet. The approach was going to let him get in to make a 600 meter shot. That would be the bet he could do and still have an escape route. Trouble. was, there was a 1400 meter, flat field with no cover, and 3-4 armed groups of three, patrolling that field.

From the tree line, he laid down and started his crawl. 71 hours later, he reached the designated spot to make his shot. 71 hours!!! During that time, patrols. got within 10 feet of him, in grass that was 8-10 inches tall. At one point, the three man patrol walked right over him basically. The patrol was walking with a gap of about 15 feet between them. When they passed, two guys passed on one side and the other guy passed on the other side. When I read the Sitrep, I assumed it had to be at night. Somebody else pointed out that it happened shortly after noon.
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Old 02-15-2015, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Lakewood Ranch, FL
5,112 posts, read 7,639,834 times
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^^^That's wild. I've heard that it can take hours just to move a couple of inches. I wonder if they have another sniper covering them?
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Old 02-15-2015, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,410,165 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbronston View Post
^^^That's wild. I've heard that it can take hours just to move a couple of inches. I wonder if they have another sniper covering them?
Usually in pairs, one acts as a spotter, one as the shooter. Each mission, they would switch unless a guy specialized (better at uphill, or wind, etc...) and then he might do two in a row. At least that's the way it used to be. No, I understand now, a shooter is always the shooter and the spotter is always the spotter. Separate schools to begin with and then finally paired for the final schools.
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Old 02-21-2015, 01:19 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,886 posts, read 12,536,143 times
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got an email from Gunwerks. they are willing to train my daughter on all of their courses even though she is only 15. I am looking at their schedule to see when will work best for her during the summer months.

thanks for all your help.
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Old 02-21-2015, 12:52 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,020 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
I bought my 15 year old daughter a Barrett .338 Lapua with a 4-50x75mm Counter-Sniper scope for Christmas and she is shooting it fine out to 1000 meters.

She is seeking to start shooting out to 1500 meters and beyond, but I cannot seem to find any MOA tables for her to work with. I have checked a few sites and am getting nowhere.

Does anyone know any sites or the MOA tables for 1000+ meters?

My daughter is currently using 250 gr BTHP match ammo from Hornady out of a 26 inch barrel, in case that information is is needed.

Any help would be appreciated.
Chronograph HER rifle/load and run your own dope. 1500m shooting cannot be spoon-fed. For example...


Lets use your data...

The bullet you are describing has a BC of .670 G1factor.

Assume she is launching it at 2975fps. But the person you get the dope from was launching the same bullet at 2950fps.

You are now about a foot and a half off for using their dope.

This is definitely DIY.

__________________________

Typical standard for a military sniper is 2MOA...any time. Any place. Any situation. Those latter qualifications are what makes a shooter vs. a bench monkey. Lots of guys can pull 1/4-1/2 MOA out of a quality rifle off a bench for 3 shots. Get them in the field and ask for 20 shots inside 2 MOA. Things change.

__________________________

Quality instruction at 1500 yards is likely to come best from a mentor vs. a "school" for a 15 year old. Most schools that teach things like this on the .mil/LE side won't accept her as a student. Good work getting her accepted for some mentoring/teaching by Gunwerks though!


__________________________

If I were interested in 1500m shooting, I would go with Nightforce. At 1500m, you need to know what you just dialed is what you got. Nightforce is an excellent option for that, and has some of the best, most boringly accurate and consistent erector assembly movements on the planet. You don't need 50x magnification for 1500 yards. That's just a crutch for using junk glass with horrible resolution. Is your daughter dialing dope, etc. or just shooting in low/no-wind situations? If she is/starts dialing dope, that Nightforce is going to be the ticket. If she's using holds, etc. Well, I'd check out something with a Horus.
http://nightforceoptics.com/beast/

_____________________________

This is why I draw my line at 600m (400m is cake even with poor BC bullets out of my 5.56, I'd figure I can handle 600m using 77gr TMK's just fine). I got dizzy at just the tingle of my OCD sense at connecting further. A lot of training and gear goes into a RELIABLE shooter/weapon 1500m capable combo.
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Old 02-21-2015, 01:09 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,020 times
Reputation: 2653
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
What you are concerned with is called external ballistics. It is what happens between the time the bullet leaves the barrel and it impacts the target. For instance, humidity is not a factor at 1000 meters and less, yet it is a factor past 1000 meters. The humidity can be drastically different at the target. You can have half a dozen cross winds, elevation (actual and relative), temperature, etc. play HUGE roles. As in, hitting the guy in the chest vs. flying over his head. So every time you go out to zero, the range is different. There went the tables you built last week when you were out burning powder. There just isn't any reliable tables, that are usable. Gun manufacturers have calculators, as well as there are ballistic tables put out by ammo manufacturers. Those calculators are fairly close and are derived from doppler radar testing. But, that is internal ballistics and projected results.
OP seems to want a cook-book. There isn't one, as you note. Cook-book shooting doesn't work at 1500m.

Obviously you understand that if I made you 5 bull barrels, and warrenteed them at 1/2 inch at 100 yards, those would be tight barrels, but each one would shoot differently and each one would respond differently to each bullet weight, each type of powder, each amount of powder. a you can do the math, if you draw a radius of .5 at the target, now add the other factors and you should stay within that radius. Maybe one type of powder would always put you in a particular quadrant. You can now do the math to predict what your bullet should do when you calculate where that bullet is going to drift at 100, 500, and even 1000 yards. Those factors are fairly negligible out to 1000, however, their faults really kick in when you look at 1000+. Let's throw in another fuge factor. When you compete, in order to keep things fair, the range furnishes the ammo. Do you know what they are going to furnish this week? How old is it? How was stored?
What range furnishes ammunition matched to your dope book capable of holding 1-2MOA at 1500M? I don't think that will be the issue.

Remember, every barrel, every action is going to handle a particular shell differently. That is all internal ballistics and can be calculated to some point. But it is still a prediction. you can't even start a dope table until you start factoring in external ballistics and then you are talking over 100 variables that have to be factored in. Even, earths spin.
Reliable, consistent hits at 1500m are not available in cook-book or spoon fed form. Agree 100% with your above ^

This is like OP saying "I bought my 16 year-old a new Viper. Where can I go to have her taught to drive it?

This is NOT a bad question...for example...maybe when she was 7 she began go-kart racing and has been hitting the track for almost a decade now and really knows how to handle the friction circle, etc. However, 99% of the time, it just means you'll see a headline in the paper soon.

So I would ask OP...What is your daughters experience level, here? Can you describe where she is coming from? If she is using this .338LAP without flinching or having other bad habits, then that tells me she is either a freak, or she has a good bit of experience behind a weapon like this.

Just curious what kind of advice you're really asking for. Things seem "off"...you have a 15 year old who isn't flinching with a .338LAP...who you want cook-book data for shots for which don't exist...while running junk glass on a $$ rifle...recommended by the company who made the rifle? It's just not adding up for me.
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Old 02-21-2015, 01:10 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,020 times
Reputation: 2653
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Along with long shots, something that always impressed me was approach and escape. There was a guy in Viet Nam that was sent in to take out a NoVet. The approach was going to let him get in to make a 600 meter shot. That would be the bet he could do and still have an escape route. Trouble. was, there was a 1400 meter, flat field with no cover, and 3-4 armed groups of three, patrolling that field.

From the tree line, he laid down and started his crawl. 71 hours later, he reached the designated spot to make his shot. 71 hours!!! During that time, patrols. got within 10 feet of him, in grass that was 8-10 inches tall. At one point, the three man patrol walked right over him basically. The patrol was walking with a gap of about 15 feet between them. When they passed, two guys passed on one side and the other guy passed on the other side. When I read the Sitrep, I assumed it had to be at night. Somebody else pointed out that it happened shortly after noon.
I read Carlos Hathcocks books. Amazing stories. Oh...and what happens when you crawl through an ant-bed? You can't just jump up and run and beat at your pants. Unless you think an ant is worse than stitched up with an RPK.
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Old 02-21-2015, 07:53 PM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,886 posts, read 12,536,143 times
Reputation: 5210
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
Reliable, consistent hits at 1500m are not available in cook-book or spoon fed form. Agree 100% with your above ^

This is like OP saying "I bought my 16 year-old a new Viper. Where can I go to have her taught to drive it?

This is NOT a bad question...for example...maybe when she was 7 she began go-kart racing and has been hitting the track for almost a decade now and really knows how to handle the friction circle, etc. However, 99% of the time, it just means you'll see a headline in the paper soon.

So I would ask OP...What is your daughters experience level, here? Can you describe where she is coming from? If she is using this .338LAP without flinching or having other bad habits, then that tells me she is either a freak, or she has a good bit of experience behind a weapon like this.

Just curious what kind of advice you're really asking for. Things seem "off"...you have a 15 year old who isn't flinching with a .338LAP...who you want cook-book data for shots for which don't exist...while running junk glass on a $$ rifle...recommended by the company who made the rifle? It's just not adding up for me.



my daughters experience level is that she started shooting when she was 4 years of age. she started shooting bolts when she was 7 years of age and at age 12 killed a deer from a range of 740 years with 1 shot with a 300 winmag.
my 15 year old daughter puts about 300 aimed rounds downrange a week, and she also reloads her own ammo.
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