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Old 04-12-2015, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Texas
1,120 posts, read 861,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
Our whole reasoning was based on an incident where the bad guy was hit six times in the chest and abdominal with a 9 mm. None of which broke skin.
Was his name Clark?
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Old 04-12-2015, 02:20 PM
 
Location: New-Dentist Colony
5,724 posts, read 8,612,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HB2HSV View Post
Glad to see you in this forum

I don't recall who published that there are several ways to cause a bad guy to stop the attack but I recalled one is obviously if the bad guy is hit in the central nervous system (CNS) like the brain or the spinal cord that spontaneously disconnect his brain function from his physical ability to continue the aggression. This is where the ability to shoot where you aim matter more so than the caliber of power of handgun selection, but like many have say here that most of us, including the highly train LEOs, have difficulty to achieve.
Thanks! Yeah, I agree with all that. I know I'm not the greatest shot in the world (though I'm not bad)--so I would rather have extra capacity in case I miss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HB2HSV View Post
Another major factor that causes the bad guys to stop the aggression is psychological, that is ouch I am hit and I do not want to continue get shot so I will stop. Often this works simply by presenting the firearm and that will cause the aggressors to pause and stop. Nobody likes to get shot, not even with a .22LR. In this case, the caliber of choice really matters little.
I'm sure that's true for reasonable people. However, we have an alarm system and a large dog. If a bad guy breaks into our house, I will assume he's on some mind-altering drug or under some extreme mental illness. Or is packing a gun himself. So if I find a stranger in our house at night, I would probably shoot first and not ask any questions, even though in VA that might get me indicted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HB2HSV View Post
I agree the best defense is what's between our ears, the weapon is merely a tool. Learn how to recognize a potential danger and get out before things turned ugly. When an armed confrontation is unavoidable, and for most of us this is less than a 0.1% of chance if exercise what's between your ears correctly, choose a gun & caliber that you can shoot well, can hit where you aim, which means a lot of practice in a variety of scenario not just in an indoor range but lean how to shoot off-handed, from different positions, etc. At the end of day, it really matters little if your caliber of choice is .38 spcl or the .45 ACP.

For punching paper or stop evil soda cans I have a wide range of choices that I play with, from .22LR to .454 Casuall. But for home defense I like to choose low pressure rounds such as the .38 spcl or the .45 ACP. Unless you plan to wear ear plugs, letting go a high pressure round in an enclosed environment will shatter your hearings, even if it's only temporarily, and put you in a disadvantage in follow-up shots. Another consideration is over-penetration through the walls into the next room or the room after. A full size gun is also preferred as it provides a lower recoil, option to mount flash light, and offers a higher capacity. In this case, a .45acp with JHP makes a lot of sense.
Oh, I hear you on the virtues of .45 ACP. The idea of a large, slow bullet that will hit someone like a bowling ball but not penetrate our walls has great appeal. However, the idea of paying a lot more for ammo (versus 9mm) gives me pause, as does the idea of having only 10 or so rounds in the magazine. If some bad guy breaks into our house, I'd rather risk some hearing loss from the 9mm round than not have enough shots at my disposal. (Besides, I'm pretty sure that the .45 round can do hearing damage as well if shot in a relatively small room.) This loudness chart is interesting. (Maybe I should just get two .410 shotguns and be done with it!)

That said, it appears that .45 is only 8 cents/round more than 9mm right now, and I could keep an extra loaded magazine next to the gun (obviating the capacity concern), so I may have to rethink this...

Last edited by Carlingtonian; 04-12-2015 at 03:49 PM..
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Old 04-12-2015, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Texas
1,120 posts, read 861,549 times
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The 40sw seems to be a good compromise between the 9mm and the 45acp. The 180g bullet has ample weight to plow into the target. I use Hornady 165g FTX which is close to the velocity of a 9mm but a heavier slug and I found that the kick of my Sig 40 were not much greater than my Sigma 9mm shooting 124g +P PDX1.
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Old 04-12-2015, 03:52 PM
 
4,761 posts, read 8,391,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlingtonian View Post

Thanks! Yeah, I agree with all that. I know I'm not the greatest shot in the world (though I'm not bad)--so I would rather have extra capacity in case I miss.

I'm sure that's true for reasonable people. However, we have an alarm system and a large dog. If a bad guy breaks into our house, I will assume he's on some mind-altering drug or under some extreme mental illness. Or is packing a gun himself. So if I find a stranger in our house at night, I would probably shoot first and not ask any questions, even though in VA that might get me indicted.

Oh, I hear you on the virtues of .45 ACP. The idea of a large, slow bullet that will hit someone like a bowling ball but not penetrate our walls has great appeal. However, the idea of paying a lot more much for ammo (versus 9mm) gives me pause, as does the idea of having only 10 or so rounds in the magazine. If some bad guy breaks into our house, I'd rather risk some hearing loss from the 9mm round than not have enough shots at my disposal. (Besides, I'm pretty sure that the .45 round can do hearing damage as well if shot in a relatively small room.) This loudness chart is interesting. (Maybe I should just get two .410 shotguns and be done with it!)

That said, it appears that .45 is only 8 cents/round more than 9mm right now, and I could keep an extra loaded magazine next to the gun (obviating the capacity concern), so I may have to rethink this...
Since you're considering a firearm that both you & your wife can use, the choice of caliber should be the one that both you & her can shoot well. Since you're considering a home defense gun, don't go for light weight micro-compace "petite" guns for concealed carry as they will have higher muzzle flash and recoil. Very hard to shoot accurately. Get a full size gun that can absorb the recoil.

Try different calibers in a gun range that has rentals. I find .45ACP has more a "push" recoil while the 9mm has more of a "snap" recoil. The heavier the gun and longer the barrel, the less either are felt.

In general, average armed encounter last less than a few seconds with aeverage rounds fired being 2.5.

There are high capacity .45ACP pistol available in the market today, Sig P227 (10+1), FNX 45 (10 or 15+1), HK (10+1), Glock 21 (13+1), Glock 30 (10+1).

Or you may consider the Kel tec PMR 30. It holds 30 rounds of .22 magnum
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Old 04-12-2015, 07:52 PM
 
Location: New-Dentist Colony
5,724 posts, read 8,612,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HB2HSV View Post
Since you're considering a firearm that both you & your wife can use, the choice of caliber should be the one that both you & her can shoot well. Since you're considering a home defense gun, don't go for light weight micro-compace "petite" guns for concealed carry as they will have higher muzzle flash and recoil. Very hard to shoot accurately. Get a full size gun that can absorb the recoil.

Try different calibers in a gun range that has rentals. I find .45ACP has more a "push" recoil while the 9mm has more of a "snap" recoil. The heavier the gun and longer the barrel, the less either are felt.

In general, average armed encounter last less than a few seconds with aeverage rounds fired being 2.5.

There are high capacity .45ACP pistol available in the market today, Sig P227 (10+1), FNX 45 (10 or 15+1), HK (10+1), Glock 21 (13+1), Glock 30 (10+1).

Or you may consider the Kel tec PMR 30. It holds 30 rounds of .22 magnum
Thanks for the suggestions!

That's good to know about the 2.5 shots. Maybe I should just get a 20-gauge shotgun for HD and then get a some smaller-caliber pistol for target shooting. (BTW, since you're in NoVA: I'm thinking about joining the Izaak Walton League, which has a skeet and pistol/rifle range.)

The wife can definitely handle a 9mm, since we've shot those before at the range together. (Unfortunately, I don't recall what brand it was; it was a rental.) Neither of us has ever shot a .45, but I don't doubt she could handle that--as long as it's a small enough frame that her finger can reach the trigger (esp. a DA trigger). I shot my friend's Springfield XDM 9 a few weekends ago, and it shot really great.

Maybe I will get us one of these: XM42

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Old 04-12-2015, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,446,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeGer View Post
Was his name Clark?
No, but something people don't think about, or don't comprehend is winter wear in Northern Wyoming. The normal wear is long johns, denim shirt, leather vest, couple of hoodies, Csrhart bibs, and Carhart or some other maker of heavy canvas coat. So when you shoot somebody, its not going to be in your perfect world where the perp wears nothing but a T-shirt or short sleeves shirt. You had better take everything into account.
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Old 04-13-2015, 04:19 PM
 
18,147 posts, read 16,473,947 times
Reputation: 9752
I still remember the latest tragedy locally that happened a few years back. Two friends were at a party, both drunk. They got into an argument and one drew a gun and the other dared him to shoot him. He did. It was a .380 pocket pistol. The round went in and bounced around from his chest through his abdomen. The victim said " Dude, you shot me.", and died on the operating table a few hours later after being rushed to the hospital immediately.
Don't ever underestimate any rounds potential lethality and the effect of a firearm off going off as a deterrent to an aggressor. But sometimes even the sight of a firearm won't be enough to ward off someone, whether its a .22 mouse gun or a .44 hand cannon.
I saw a Youtube video where a .32 ACP went through 16 layers of denim and then went deep into ballistics gel. Even a .22 LR will get deep penetration its just the size of the bullet and the wound channel that isn't large.
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Old 04-13-2015, 05:23 PM
 
4,761 posts, read 8,391,677 times
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I think Iraqveteran888 has a YouTube video out shooting .22lr from 25 yards to 440 yards. The 25 yard test not only penetrated a 3/4 inch plywood but one stray penetrated the 2X4. This was done with a Ruger 22/45.

The 440 yards was done with a bolt action .22lr and the stray also penetrated 2X4 ! I would not underestimate the penetration power of .22LR!
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Old 04-14-2015, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,774 posts, read 3,683,653 times
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Many, many people have been killed by the lowly .22LR and .25ACP, and I've seen the video you mentioned. But don't confuse "potentially lethal" with an adequate self-defense projectile. Yes, at 440yds a direct brain shot (through the skin and skull only, not through the front of the fact), or maybe a hit to a shallow artery (neck) with a .22LR could be lethal. But in a self-defense situation you cannot rely on pinpoint precision.

In the Florida shootout I mentioned earlier the 9mm bullet went in through the arm and stopped short of the heart. A .22 never would have made it out of the arm.

If it's all you have or all you can shoot (arthritis, etc.), then carry a .22LR. Or even better, carry a .22Magnum. But if you can handle the recoil you need a bigger cartridge.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUM1r_444CY
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Old 04-14-2015, 09:24 PM
 
Location: OC, CA
9,862 posts, read 13,213,785 times
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I can't forget many years back a fat kid wanna be banger survived at 22LR because of his fat the cops said.

But yeah I have enough respect for 22LR, it sounds like a pellet gun going off but it certainly isn't.
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