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Old 03-04-2015, 09:05 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,614,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadd View Post
regardless of how "easy" loads/guns are to control, that sort of ammo aint causing much shock or tissue destruction. The great majority stop at the sight of your gun or at shots that miss them. About half of those shot stop with any sort of hit, by any sort of load, and about 5% don't stop no matter what you hit them with (non spine or brain) In between is the area where the load (and lots of very fast, very destructive hits, can make the difference. The question is your willingness/ability to aquire the ability/gear to do that.
I am convinced that 90%+ of all successful handgun stops which do not hit/disrupt the CNS, are voluntary/psychological.

What is a "successful stop"?

To me, it means that the guy 10-15 feet away from you is unable to close distance and act, or to shoot from where he is.

I feel the percentage for rifles/shotguns is also pretty high.

There simply isn't enough tissue destruction being done to disable the body quicker than 15+ seconds with shoulder-fired weaponry. Ergo, make solid hits to the CNS or major circulatory or bloodbearing organs, and prepare to potentially go hands-on, or whatever your plan is for dealing with the walking dead.
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Old 03-04-2015, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Florida
3,194 posts, read 4,238,516 times
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I'm a believer in energy. Getting more energy through velocity seems to be more efficient than using more mass. Double the velocity, quadruple the energy is what the formula is, I believe.

Any pistol is a poor "one shot stop" because handgun rounds do not typically have that type of energy. The "knock down" power argument is silly, there is no such thing when you're talking pistol cartridges.

I'm a fan of the 9mm. It gives a good combination of ballistics, capacity, concealment, price (pistols & ammo) and the platforms are common so you have a wide choice of accessories.

I'm also a fan of the .357 SIG because of the high velocity (for a pistol cartridge) it offers.

A person will stop fighting in a few ways:

-hydrostatic shock
-central nervous system hit
-psychological

I want to deposit as much energy to the center of mass in the target in the shortest period of time possible. While a CNS hit would most likely immediately eliminate the threat, shootings don't happen in real life like they do in the movies. Stopping a threat through their own psychological means such as quitting would be the last option for me.

Google the 21 foot rule. It can get ugly pretty fast.
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Old 03-04-2015, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,428,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
I am convinced that 90%+ of all successful handgun stops which do not hit/disrupt the CNS, are voluntary/psychological.

What is a "successful stop"?

To me, it means that the guy 10-15 feet away from you is unable to close distance and act, or to shoot from where he is.

I feel the percentage for rifles/shotguns is also pretty high.

There simply isn't enough tissue destruction being done to disable the body quicker than 15+ seconds with shoulder-fired weaponry. Ergo, make solid hits to the CNS or major circulatory or bloodbearing organs, and prepare to potentially go hands-on, or whatever your plan is for dealing with the walking dead.
A successful stop? Exactly that. A successful stop. Stopping the perp from delivering any mor destruction. Stopping advancement to deliver more. Stopping, disabling, period. My experience is to stop is to make dead.
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Old 03-04-2015, 11:53 PM
 
Location: OC, CA
9,862 posts, read 13,199,006 times
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After seeing YT of HCD ammo .380 with ballistic gel I decided to get my LCP .380.
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Old 03-05-2015, 03:25 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,614,148 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Army_Guy View Post
I'm a believer in energy. Getting more energy through velocity seems to be more efficient than using more mass. Double the velocity, quadruple the energy is what the formula is, I believe.

Any pistol is a poor "one shot stop" because handgun rounds do not typically have that type of energy. The "knock down" power argument is silly, there is no such thing when you're talking pistol cartridges.

I'm a fan of the 9mm. It gives a good combination of ballistics, capacity, concealment, price (pistols & ammo) and the platforms are common so you have a wide choice of accessories.

I'm also a fan of the .357 SIG because of the high velocity (for a pistol cartridge) it offers.

A person will stop fighting in a few ways:

-hydrostatic shock
-central nervous system hit
-psychological

I want to deposit as much energy to the center of mass in the target in the shortest period of time possible. While a CNS hit would most likely immediately eliminate the threat, shootings don't happen in real life like they do in the movies. Stopping a threat through their own psychological means such as quitting would be the last option for me.

Google the 21 foot rule. It can get ugly pretty fast.
I considered the energy/Velocity deal back when I bought a 357SIG. However, after speaking more to Dr. Gary Roberts about it, he shared with me that one department in California, for which he had dozens upon dozens of OIS's to pull from over the course of several years, showed that 147gr 9mm performed just as well as their .357 magnum service revolvers, before the department switched over. There is no way that a 147gr 9mm is comparable in either energy, or velocity, to the 357 magnum, even from a 4" barrel.

Realistically speaking, the only way a pistol causes destruction of tissue is when the projectile physically contacts said tissue. To me, this means that penetration (at least 12-14" in gel, since that is the gold standard for comparing loads now days) is #1. #2 is expansion, but not at the cost of #1 meeting its "goal" of 12-14". An entrance, and an exit, are ideal, to let in the most air, and out the most blood, so to speak. However, for self-defense, maybe a pass-through isn't the best idea, so no greater than 18" in gel is a good rule. Consider that the skin on the back is equivalent to roughly 4" of gel, and then the perp likely has clothing on, and who knows what that's equivalent to? Regardless, the OIS data I've seen on shootings with bullets in service-calibers that routinely penetrate 15-17" in gel show the projectiles do not leave the perp's clothing, typically.

Thus we are left with trying to make the largest hole we can, as deep as we can...but not too deep. We must also take marksmanship, and follow-up, and capacity, into account as well. Since this is the real world, that means cost of training ammo, also.

In short, I'm pretty happy with the 9mm, and so is the FBI and so is the military...yes, even elements of MARSOC or whatever they are called now who was issued the M45A1 1911 just recently...who even more recently got authorization to use Glock 19's because the 1911 wasn't getting it done in several key areas.

Anyway, hydrostatic shock is meaningless in the handgun world (or rather, until about 1800fps, which might as well be "the common service caliber handgun world"). It simply isn't a wounding mechanism at these velocities. Thus PCC, permanent crush cavity, is all that seems to matter regarding tissue destruction.

Now, a psychological stop? Anything can cause that, really. No sense trying to pin down that.

Rapid COM hits like you say, are a good thing to strive for!
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Old 03-05-2015, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
7,834 posts, read 7,821,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
A successful stop? Exactly that. A successful stop. Stopping the perp from delivering any mor destruction. Stopping advancement to deliver more. Stopping, disabling, period. My experience is to stop is to make dead.
Pretty much agree with that except to add that the death of the aggressor is merely a byproduct of stopping his/her advancement.
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Old 03-06-2015, 07:01 AM
 
2,004 posts, read 1,141,078 times
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The adequacy of any defense is solely reliant upon the adequacy of the defender. Like sex, performance relies not on the equipment but on the individual using it. Engage brains not brawn.
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Old 03-06-2015, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
13,167 posts, read 7,403,965 times
Reputation: 27269
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
Whatever you can carry comfortably and shoot accurately. It's a cliche, but the .25ACP in your pocket is infinitely more effective than the .45ACP you left at home or in your vehicle.

My mom carries a lightweight Ruger LCR in .22 Mag, and it's adequate for her. Personally, I carry a 9mm Luger or .38 Special.

Based on your list, I would draw the line below .32 ACP for an ultra-deep concealed carry. The .25ACP in "Saturday Night Special" form has killed many people, but for me it's just too weak. A good .22Mag hollow point would be better.

If I'm not worried about ultra-concealment I'd go with a .380ACP as the minimum, but I'd prefer a 9mm Luger.
Exactly. So many people underestimate the power of the trusty old .22 caliber gun. Caliber doesn't matter as much as marksmanship. Having the biggest, strongest .45 in the world won't aid you in self defense if you can't hit your target. I'm a small woman (5'2") and own a .22 and a 9 mm. I've shot much larger guns, and I haven't noticed anything special about them except the expensive cost of ammo. Gf is much tinier than me (5'0") and she has a .38 and a 9 mm. She prefers her .38 over both of our 9mms and I prefer my 9mm over her .38. But I don't like revolvers.
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Old 03-06-2015, 07:34 AM
 
195 posts, read 143,943 times
Reputation: 155
we CAN destroy enough tissue to cause lots more willingness to quit, a lot faster than 15 seconds. A 460 split nose, 800+ ft lbs, or a 223 softpoint only rarely, maybe 2x in 100 shootings to the chest, fail to get a near instant cessation of attack. It's probably not a physical incapacation. But it's still a stop, even it if IS "only a pshycological "quitting". :-) we CAN (easily) exceed 1800 fps with controlable handgun ammo. it's just a question of making the bullet much lighter. Spin the buillets out of solid aluminum, zinc, or copper rod, it's perfectly feasible to get them to weigh 60 grs in 9mm and 80 grs in .45 and easily lift them to 1800 fps. actually, you can get them going 2200 fps. it's just a question of size and design of the hp and the slit in the bullets that determines how deeply it penetrates and how much damage it does.
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Old 03-06-2015, 07:45 AM
 
195 posts, read 143,943 times
Reputation: 155
People have to just get over the idea that lead cored copper jackets it eh only way to make bullets. It's quite easy to have a 60 gr 9mm bullet or 80 gr .45 that feeds and ejects just fine, has plenty of power and accurcy, and plenty of penetration. fi you want more or less penetration, you just make a smaller or larger hp cavity, and make a shallower or deeper slit in the split nose. You most assuredly can have 223 rifle type destruction and shock form a fulled suppored 460 Rowland or 10 mm. Wiuth a pocket 9, it's quite feasible to get he same sort of fine preformance seen with 4" barreled 357's, using 125 gr jhp's.=, if you load them correcly, using a 45 gr bullet at 2200 fps. Google Mag Safe ammo. they've offered a 2500 fps 357 Sig load, 4" barrel, for many years now. Ditto a 2200 fps 9mm load.
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