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Old 03-15-2015, 04:28 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,886 posts, read 12,538,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cape Cod Todd View Post
There was just a video on citydata the other day where a stupid crook put his gun down while cleaning out the register the woman picked it up, backed away he attacked her and she shot him. He walked away a bit in shock but hardly realising he was shot.

I think the adrenaline would be surging so unless the bullet hit something vital it would take more than one shot to slow an aggressor down let alone stop him.



yes and no.

when my room mate and i shot the 2 people who broke into our home in the early 1990s, they both got shot, but one died straight out and the other stumbled before falling into the front door. firearms used were Remington 870 in 12 gauge and a 1911A1 in 45 ACP.
either way, both left our home horizontal.


this was also 2 different instances that our home was broken into.
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Old 03-15-2015, 08:21 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
yes and no.

when my room mate and i shot the 2 people who broke into our home in the early 1990s, they both got shot, but one died straight out and the other stumbled before falling into the front door. firearms used were Remington 870 in 12 gauge and a 1911A1 in 45 ACP.
either way, both left our home horizontal.


this was also 2 different instances that our home was broken into.
The 12ga is about the nastiest thing one can use at in-home distances. If I had "one shot", and it was across my livingroom, I'd want a 1oz Foster slug or some #1 Buck. A lot of people don't realize it, but 1oz foster slugs frag badly on close impacts. They have enough mass to penetrate effectively even still.

Glad you guys are the one's still with us, but sorry to hear about the necessity of events.
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Old 03-15-2015, 10:48 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,340 posts, read 10,902,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
Jives with what I have seen to be the case. The complications I have seen that extend beyond the immediate situation (being the GSW+healing time) have been CNS (spinal), and when the peritoneal cavity is penetrated, especially when bowel is involved.
Wounds penetrating the peritoneum are always serious. There are also a lot of myths about the proverbial "gut shot" wound, as well. Holdovers from the old days, mostly. Secondary infection ,(peritonititis) is the biggest risk. The human body does not take well to having bowel contents spilled into it. Bad news.

As I said, I don't know to much about what that knife wound took to "repair". Other than they really couldn't "repair" it, fully. Not even close. Probably could have gotten more, but I didn't care. Still don't. Interesting things, adrenaline and shock. Drugs have been mentioned, as well, as a factor in what it takes to put down an attacker.

PCP always comes up. Its not very common anymore, but Ketamine is out there, and it has a similar effect. That being a disassoviative state. If you add that to adrenaline , it creates a serious animal. Literally, no brain no pain. We've all heard the story of the gorilla on PCP.

Things being as they are, its prudent to be prepared to defend ourselves. This subject at hand has been discussed in detail. "Stopping power" information (and misinformation) abounds. Our most effective weapon is our brain. When things get dicey, it doesn't pay to have brought your gun, and left your brain at home.
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Old 03-15-2015, 01:26 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
Wounds penetrating the peritoneum are always serious. There are also a lot of myths about the proverbial "gut shot" wound, as well. Holdovers from the old days, mostly. Secondary infection ,(peritonititis) is the biggest risk. The human body does not take well to having bowel contents spilled into it. Bad news. We can pump people full of enough powerful drugs that this risk is somewhat minimized, if you want to use such a grandiose term as that. The issues I have seen with bowel disruptions of the surgical or ballistic or any other kind, are long and far-reaching. Such as obstructions, lesions, etc. after the primary insult has healed.

As I said, I don't know to much about what that knife wound took to "repair". Other than they really couldn't "repair" it, fully. Not even close. Probably could have gotten more, but I didn't care. Still don't. Interesting things, adrenaline and shock. Drugs have been mentioned, as well, as a factor in what it takes to put down an attacker.

PCP always comes up. Its not very common anymore, but Ketamine is out there, and it has a similar effect. That being a disassoviative state. If you add that to adrenaline , it creates a serious animal. Literally, no brain no pain. We've all heard the story of the gorilla on PCP. I've never seen PCP "on the street". Now, when I was in college, all my roommates did coke, acid, all that jazz, and I was curious and asked about PCP. Everyone looked at me like I was nuts. But I guess it DOES exist, just, doesn't make much of an appearance as you state.

Things being as they are, its prudent to be prepared to defend ourselves. This subject at hand has been discussed in detail. "Stopping power" information (and misinformation) abounds. Our most effective weapon is our brain. When things get dicey, it doesn't pay to have brought your gun, and left your brain at home.

YEP YEP AND YEP! The firearm is a tool, the brain is the weapon.
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Old 03-15-2015, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Central Maine
2,868 posts, read 2,843,280 times
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Violence of action. Backing up while shooting is not only reducing your chances of hitting, but it's also monumentally increasing your chances of tripping and landing on your arse. I highly doubt any of us would know what was behind us on the floor (a stray shoe? trash-can? whatever) and have the presence of mind to step over it while shooting, backing up, and being charged by someone.

Backing up isn't always bad, but it is bad almost always.


You are preaching to the choir. Have done it, trained it MANY times, in my careers both in military and LE. Moving forward AND backing up. Especially whilst reloading. A quick glance over the shoulder then....whoosh. Trained going to cover MANY times whilst drawing and shooting as well. Second nature to me. You can stand there and let the guy who won't fall run up on you if you wish. I am not. I don't care if it may sound cowardly to some. At least I'll live to fight another day.
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Old 03-15-2015, 04:59 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,340 posts, read 10,902,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
YEP YEP AND YEP! The firearm is a tool, the brain is the weapon.
The creep who receives that knife wound is tied to a wheelchair and a collection bag for his ..waste disposal. For as long as his miserable life may last. That much I do know. The knife was a 4" clip point, and it was far from a mediocre edge. In listening to the description of the incident, how it all went down, both the interviewing deputy and I couldn't help but cringe a bit, and the deputy was female.

The creep was , pretty much, stopped in his tracks, so to speak. I'm guessing, shock and blood loss, which was considerable and VERY fast, just folded voluntary muscle control. He lost a lot of blood, in a hurry. Coupled with the severing of major organs, nerves etc, his intentions for the outcome of the situation were in need of rethinking. As compared to what a gunshot, or two or three or 10, may have done, I believe, after much thought about this since it happened, that the knife caused more blood loss than slugs would have. That being the key to the fast stop.

I've never seen a GSW that caused that kind of , instant, blood loss. The guy I mentioned eatlier, that took the 45 slug, barely bled, at all. That surprised me. But, it was a clean entry, clean exit. Didn't hit any major blood vessels. But, even if it had, KT was nothing a pressure bandage wouldn't have kept stable till medic help could arrive. That knife wound...may as we have stuck a bandaid over a split out bucket.

Another thing, that bears mention...I've brought it up before is discussions like this, but it seems to be,largely, passed over. It has to do with the brain thing. Its all fine to discuss the weapons we use to defend ourselves, what they can do to stop an attack, and what they can't do. But, things don't end with stopping an attack. They are just beginning. We can't think about that while in the fight, but, it is something to, also, condition ourselves for. This is especially true, if you are supporting someone who has been attacked, and did what had to be done. Don't overestimate what you THINK you can handle. The fight I went through, and am still going through, following the heels of things, has changed me. For the better, I like to think, but its been no fun achieving that mental state.

So, do your homework, by all means, research things. Train, practice, condition. But, spend a little time looking past all that, as well. Above all, remember what it means to strap that weapon on. If your training someone else in self defense, don't get SL caught jl in handling the weapon that you forget about the brain and the will that controls it.
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Old 03-15-2015, 06:46 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by DauntlessDan View Post
Violence of action. Backing up while shooting is not only reducing your chances of hitting, but it's also monumentally increasing your chances of tripping and landing on your arse. I highly doubt any of us would know what was behind us on the floor (a stray shoe? trash-can? whatever) and have the presence of mind to step over it while shooting, backing up, and being charged by someone.

Backing up isn't always bad, but it is bad almost always.


You are preaching to the choir. Have done it, trained it MANY times, in my careers both in military and LE. Moving forward AND backing up. Especially whilst reloading. A quick glance over the shoulder then....whoosh. Trained going to cover MANY times whilst drawing and shooting as well. Second nature to me. You can stand there and let the guy who won't fall run up on you if you wish. I am not. I don't care if it may sound cowardly to some. At least I'll live to fight another day.
I'd rather not take my eyes off of an immediate threat. I'd rather go hands-on than risk falling. I mean, we are assuming this guy isn't shooting at you, because if he is, well you're already in deep doodoo and should seek cover rather than running backwards. Or charge him yourself? I don't know, that sounds bad if you're out of ammo. I had that happen a few times in simunition training. Running backwards, I was ALWAYS slower than even the 415fps simgun bullets. I would have gotten shot less had I charged the guy who was charging/shooting me, too, instead of running backwards while trying to clear my pistol (simguns...they jam). That is why I feel how I do. Running backwards SUCKED, and I did it just like you say. I was all sorts of messed up. Craning about looking, running backwards, just so much fail. It got me shot up every time. Craig Douglas had great advice in that class: Where your hips are oriented facing, is where you should be going. Want to go another way fast? Aim your hips at it. Anything else is just half-ass and will not work so hot unless cover or some other external variable is involved in your favor.

Why go hands-on? Because it's headed there anyway. If he's running forwards, and you're looking over your shoulder and running backwards...who do you think will be moving faster? I'm betting on the guy who's a running dead-man winning that race...now granted, I'm picturing a typical livingroom. You might be picturing a mall or something.

This is why I lift, this is why I fought full contact for a time, and this is why I in general try to maintain a stout physical ability. Because big, strong people are harder to kill that weak out of shape people. And because what if someone jumps me before I even draw my weapon? Hey, we'd all like to say "I'll be aware!" but reality is that sometimes we aren't.

So...what's your aversion to going hands-on if you can't get away (be realistic, running backwards is not a winning race. You aren't getting away.), and what are you trying to accomplish by running backwards? I don't think running away is cowardly. I'd run, too, if I thought it would in any way help me. But I'd turn around and run my ass off instead of craning my neck around and back-pedaling while someone charges me. Have you ever seen anyone out back-pedal someone charging them?
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Old 03-15-2015, 06:48 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
The creep who receives that knife wound is tied to a wheelchair and a collection bag for his ..waste disposal. For as long as his miserable life may last. That much I do know. The knife was a 4" clip point, and it was far from a mediocre edge. In listening to the description of the incident, how it all went down, both the interviewing deputy and I couldn't help but cringe a bit, and the deputy was female.

The creep was , pretty much, stopped in his tracks, so to speak. I'm guessing, shock and blood loss, which was considerable and VERY fast, just folded voluntary muscle control. He lost a lot of blood, in a hurry. Coupled with the severing of major organs, nerves etc, his intentions for the outcome of the situation were in need of rethinking. As compared to what a gunshot, or two or three or 10, may have done, I believe, after much thought about this since it happened, that the knife caused more blood loss than slugs would have. That being the key to the fast stop.

I've never seen a GSW that caused that kind of , instant, blood loss. The guy I mentioned eatlier, that took the 45 slug, barely bled, at all. That surprised me. But, it was a clean entry, clean exit. Didn't hit any major blood vessels. But, even if it had, KT was nothing a pressure bandage wouldn't have kept stable till medic help could arrive. That knife wound...may as we have stuck a bandaid over a split out bucket.

Another thing, that bears mention...I've brought it up before is discussions like this, but it seems to be,largely, passed over. It has to do with the brain thing. Its all fine to discuss the weapons we use to defend ourselves, what they can do to stop an attack, and what they can't do. But, things don't end with stopping an attack. They are just beginning. We can't think about that while in the fight, but, it is something to, also, condition ourselves for. This is especially true, if you are supporting someone who has been attacked, and did what had to be done. Don't overestimate what you THINK you can handle. The fight I went through, and am still going through, following the heels of things, has changed me. For the better, I like to think, but its been no fun achieving that mental state.

So, do your homework, by all means, research things. Train, practice, condition. But, spend a little time looking past all that, as well. Above all, remember what it means to strap that weapon on. If your training someone else in self defense, don't get SL caught jl in handling the weapon that you forget about the brain and the will that controls it.
As bad as it sounds, I'd rather take a shot from a .45 than be knifed by an even semi-competent "knifer" (word?). Knives are nasty. Slashes just look bad, but a stab and pull/cut is just brutal, as you state.
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Old 03-15-2015, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Spots Wyoming
18,696 posts, read 35,415,173 times
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#2 shot, 1897 Winchester 12 ga, is pretty effective at about 75 feet.

Growing up on a dry land farm in Eastern South Dakota. We had trouble with wild dogs getting after the livestock. I was 11 years old and all alone. Heard the chickens raising hell about 11 pm. So I got the Winchester down. Dad kept it loaded with #2 shot. So I pumped a shell into it and headed out. Course it was pitch black out. When I got out to the chicken shack, I could just make out a big ole critter coming out of the chicken door, (2.5 ft tall?). So I leaned back and let er bang. Gun was too long and heavy to just raise/lift it. Critter went down, but kind of rolled over and started getting up again so I jacked another round in and let er bang again. This time it stayed down. So I went to the barn and got a lantern to see what I shot. 50 year old man, stealing chickens. Called the Sheriff and he came out along with an ambulance. The guy wasn't dead, but he was some tore up.

Thankfully, our property was properly marked for No Trespassing. Guy admitted to stealing and he admitted to seeing the no trespassing signs, or things could have gone terribly wrong for me. He lived but was scared up. He was a marked man in that small town as everybody knew about it.
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Old 03-16-2015, 01:29 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter View Post
#2 shot, 1897 Winchester 12 ga, is pretty effective at about 75 feet.

Growing up on a dry land farm in Eastern South Dakota. We had trouble with wild dogs getting after the livestock. I was 11 years old and all alone. Heard the chickens raising hell about 11 pm. So I got the Winchester down. Dad kept it loaded with #2 shot. So I pumped a shell into it and headed out. Course it was pitch black out. When I got out to the chicken shack, I could just make out a big ole critter coming out of the chicken door, (2.5 ft tall?). So I leaned back and let er bang. Gun was too long and heavy to just raise/lift it. Critter went down, but kind of rolled over and started getting up again so I jacked another round in and let er bang again. This time it stayed down. So I went to the barn and got a lantern to see what I shot. 50 year old man, stealing chickens. Called the Sheriff and he came out along with an ambulance. The guy wasn't dead, but he was some tore up.

Thankfully, our property was properly marked for No Trespassing. Guy admitted to stealing and he admitted to seeing the no trespassing signs, or things could have gone terribly wrong for me. He lived but was scared up. He was a marked man in that small town as everybody knew about it.
Well, what do you know? Taking stuff that isn't yours ends poorly sometimes!
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