U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Hobbies and Recreation > Guns and Hunting
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-22-2015, 08:28 AM
 
195 posts, read 143,754 times
Reputation: 155

Advertisements

what choke in that m97 barrel? Doesn't sound all that effective to me, with 2 solid hits having no real effect. Did you actually measure that 75 ft, or are you guessing, and it was really 20 yds? big difference when it comes to birdshot.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-22-2015, 08:31 AM
 
195 posts, read 143,754 times
Reputation: 155
all of this anecdotal stuff means NOTHING (relative to this thread), of course, cause my OP was about the PERCENTAGES and what they MEAN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2015, 08:39 AM
 
195 posts, read 143,754 times
Reputation: 155
anyone who "thinks" that blood loss causes a "fast stop" is ignorant of the facts of life. The facts are that complete stop of blood flow from the heart still leaves the human with at least 4 second's worth of functionality. This is proven every time somebody fully applies a double carotid choke. All blood flow to the brain is stopped, and the "victim" is able to flop around violently for several seconds. 4 seconds is time enough to shoot, stab, or club you 15 or more times (with each hand).

Fortunately, the huge majority of 'stops" occur due to psyhological reasons (ie, I'm hurt, can't breathe right, etc, so I quit what I was doing) NO, i am not saying psych stops are preferable or reliable, but they are a lot more reliably fast (which is what is needed) than blood loss or loss of organ function. Breaking a hip or even the spine (below the arms) does not keep a man from shooting you from the floor. In fact, it won't prevent him slitting the throat of a hostage that he's holding, either.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2015, 08:56 AM
 
195 posts, read 143,754 times
Reputation: 155
I think Cooper had it right, really, at normal distances (ie, sub 10 ft) and normal conditions (ie, he doesn't have a gun) fire 2 really fast, at least semi-aimed rds at his chest and if those dont suffice, more carefully fire at his head, and no, I don't mean wait to see what happens and fire one shot. i mean shift to the head shot as fast as you can and if his head is still THERE to be shot at, keep shooting at it until you have reason to stop (ie, see his brain matter or another enemy forces his way into your perception or your slide locks back on empty mag) At longer ranges and/or facing a gun armed man, the proper course of action is less clear. Lots of missing (and poor hits) is the reality of such things. So the odds are that the reason he's not stopping are that you're not hitting him, rather than your hits are having no effect. So trying for a brain hit (when you can't even hit the chest reliably) doesn't sound like a viable option.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2015, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
7,823 posts, read 7,813,981 times
Reputation: 6227
Well, maybe we should just carry a flame thrower to be sure?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2015, 05:56 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,341 posts, read 10,898,841 times
Reputation: 12285
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadd View Post
anyone who "thinks" that blood loss causes a "fast stop" is ignorant of the facts of life. The facts are that complete stop of blood flow from the heart still leaves the human with at least 4 second's worth of functionality. This is proven every time somebody fully applies a double carotid choke. All blood flow to the brain is stopped, and the "victim" is able to flop around violently for several seconds. 4 seconds is time enough to shoot, stab, or club you 15 or more times (with each hand).

Fortunately, the huge majority of 'stops" occur due to psyhological reasons (ie, I'm hurt, can't breathe right, etc, so I quit what I was doing) NO, i am not saying psych stops are preferable or reliable, but they are a lot more reliably fast (which is what is needed) than blood loss or loss of organ function. Breaking a hip or even the spine (below the arms) does not keep a man from shooting you from the floor. In fact, it won't prevent him slitting the throat of a hostage that he's holding, either.
" Complety ignorant of the facts of life"? Men...whatever. anyway, in the situation I made that postulagion about, there were some mitigating factors that caused me to think that way. Say a gunshot wound stops the heart, or whatever implement is used. Most of the blood is still remaining in the body, and can dissipate what oxygen it has left to keep things working for a little bit. Albeit in w weakened state, running more on adrenaline than oxygen.

In the instance I was talking about, the creep lost most of the blood in his body, That's how I formed my theory. There was not enough oxygenated blood left to allow lifting a finger, let alone continue an attack. So, it just made sense to me, that coupled with shock, the absolutely MASSIVE blood loss was what planted him. I didn't ask the doctors about it. Didn't care. I was otherwise occupied with someone who matters.

I never really thought of it as "ignorant" to think that, being as blood is a requirement for all body function, that if it were suddenly and violently removed, almost completely, from the equation, that things would cease to function, almost immediately. But I'm not a doctor.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2015, 10:17 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,020 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadd View Post
all of this anecdotal stuff means NOTHING (relative to this thread), of course, cause my OP was about the PERCENTAGES and what they MEAN.
Sadly, your percentages are the definition of anecdotal, and the Marshall/Sanow "data" was debunked long ago.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2015, 12:54 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,020 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadd View Post
I think Cooper had it right, really, at normal distances (ie, sub 10 ft) and normal conditions (ie, he doesn't have a gun) fire 2 really fast, at least semi-aimed rds at his chest and if those dont suffice, more carefully fire at his head, and no, I don't mean wait to see what happens and fire one shot. i mean shift to the head shot as fast as you can and if his head is still THERE to be shot at, keep shooting at it until you have reason to stop (ie, see his brain matter or another enemy forces his way into your perception or your slide locks back on empty mag) At longer ranges and/or facing a gun armed man, the proper course of action is less clear. Lots of missing (and poor hits) is the reality of such things. So the odds are that the reason he's not stopping are that you're not hitting him, rather than your hits are having no effect. So trying for a brain hit (when you can't even hit the chest reliably) doesn't sound like a viable option.
What I highlighted in red reads and sounds great, but have you actually tried to shoot someone in the head while they are charging at you? I have, and it was only using simunitions in an AMIS (armed movement in structures) course. It doesn't work well. The head is literally the most difficult target. I can PROMISE that the only way that the head will "still be there" is if you get someone who has surrendered and isn't moving. Otherwise, that head will be all over the darn place. Lots of missing is the reality of CQB, as well, in a dynamic environment. People run shoot-houses and it builds training scars like you wouldn't believe when they start to actually do sim training against living flesh and blood that strategizes, moves, etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2015, 03:18 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,341 posts, read 10,898,841 times
Reputation: 12285
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWG223 View Post
What I highlighted in red reads and sounds great, but have you actually tried to shoot someone in the head while they are charging at you? I have, and it was only using simunitions in an AMIS (armed movement in structures) course. It doesn't work well. The head is literally the most difficult target. I can PROMISE that the only way that the head will "still be there" is if you get someone who has surrendered and isn't moving. Otherwise, that head will be all over the darn place. Lots of missing is the reality of CQB, as well, in a dynamic environment. People run shoot-houses and it builds training scars like you wouldn't believe when they start to actually do sim training against living flesh and blood that strategizes, moves, etc.
Truly, there is no one, single factor that determines the outcome of a terminal situation. The bad guys go down when they go down, and stop trying to kill you when their dead. How fast that happens is just not predictable or deep dent on any one thing, terminal performance of your weapons chambering or how good you are or how many times you hit him. It ends when KT ends.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2015, 05:58 PM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,747 posts, read 2,611,020 times
Reputation: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
Truly, there is no one, single factor that determines the outcome of a terminal situation. The bad guys go down when they go down, and stop trying to kill you when their dead. How fast that happens is just not predictable or deep dent on any one thing, terminal performance of your weapons chambering or how good you are or how many times you hit him. It ends when KT ends.
Agreed. Now, that doesn't mean we should not try to skew odds in our favor...but there is no "guaranteed results".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Hobbies and Recreation > Guns and Hunting
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top