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Old 03-24-2015, 01:42 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,340 posts, read 10,928,694 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
Let me put in my 2, 3, or 5 cents.

First of all, from my standpoint, background, and humble opinion, there are situations and there are guns. For example, take the "a female real estate agent has to show a house in a rural area in after hours by herself".....for that, I would much prefer to have the AR-15 because then we are much talking about the advantages of range, where I much want to get the message across of, "Stop this nonsense and get the heck out of here.".

But if I can't have the -15 (and in many situations, that could be out of the question), then I want my H&K USP because that can deliver much the same message out to a hundred yards.....and I know it can because I've tested it at that range.

OF COURSE, the problem with the USP is that it is not known for its ability to be concealed.

Hence, looking at "a female jogger alone running in a wooded area". When I asked about that situation, my arms dealer recommended and got, ie sold, me a Sig P239.

But then we come to how I've been trained, what I am, and my approach to things like this. There are those who would say carrying three magazines with a pistol is "excessive". Perhaps, but as said, it is how I've been trained, one does not carry less. But that aside, just keep in mind that one might not only be talking about a gun, its size, its weight, but also how many magazines are being carried with it.

One might be talking other things as well such as more than one gun, multiple defenses..............but to keep this simple and I'm not talking about such things here.

Finally, maybe because of using large calibers (.45/.308), perhaps because of double stacks, maybe more because of the rough and tumble life such as judo and scuba, but things like these can be very tough on the body, especially as one gets older.
That's the crux of it all ain't it. No one gun is good for every situation. Well..not ideal anyway. There's really no such animal as the "perfect" jack of all trades firearm. I've settled on my 1911 and my Mod 66 SW as my "go to", weapons for regular carry. Its nice to see someone else who has tested the rangeimkts of their hand gun, BTW. Either of the two guns I listed , with theoads I use for defensive purpose, are more than capable of accurate shot placement at 100 yards. A hundred yards really isn't that fat, and my 1911 is built to accommodate Camp Perry style shooting. 50 hards is a standard distance, and my 1911 will rack up scores higher than I'm capable of holding.

My Dad shot for the Navy, and taught me young about that style of shooting. I didn't use a two hand hold till I was almost 25, and got into action pistol. IPSC , Steel and such. Disciplines my sainted Father rather... disdained. Lol. But I bad gotten bored with Bullseye. My roots in that style disadvantaged my scores, in IPSC/USPSA at the beginning. I still don't understand the scoring methods in that style. Speed over accuracy never made sense to me. I prefer man on man steel. Its a much truer test of ability. But I digress...

The real estate saleslady, out in the weeds after dark scenerio, and the jogger put me to thinking. Mainly about exactly what type of threat comes into play. In these situations, animal , of the four legged type, attacks leap out, to me, as primary concerns. Reminds me of the lady who was run down and killed by a Mountain Lion jogging in the hills around Auburn CA back in the 80s. Aggressive dogs, running loose are concerns too.

I would think a weapon that comes to bear quickly would be desirable. Big dogs are hard to stop, as well. Surprisingly, much harder than a Cougar. I've killed a couple three cats, and none of them took more than one shot. A 223 puts them down cold, and with a shotgun I never took one down with anything heavier than #4. Non magnums. One old tom we tracked down for stock killing, my partner flattened with one shot at 30 or so yards with #6. Full choke 12 ga , but still, you would think they were tougher than that.

At any rate, dabbling aside, it would be great if we could accuatly predict what weapon would be ideal , for every situation. I guess it just goes with the old adage of "bring enough gun". Better to be over powered than under. Lol...reading your choices of shooting iron, it seems you have that covered.
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Old 03-24-2015, 02:30 PM
 
10,139 posts, read 22,451,454 times
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Women without a bullet proof vest and a utility belt on don't have the command presence to avoid a shooting when confronted. They have a split second to think about it and won't pull the trigger unless all other options have been exhausted.

For that reason, I think a woman is better served with a 13oz can of real bear spray. It will put the perp back on his heels (unless he has more determination than an 800 pound bear) while she decides if he needs to die right then. And, if so, she can just keep the trigger down until he runs out of air.

If she is gonna be in a shootout (doubtful), then she is gonna need something that insures a perp won't shoot back. And that ends the discussion of all of the reasonable lady handguns. Nothing will insure that but a 44 Mag or equivalent.
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Old 03-24-2015, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Texas Hill Country
8,914 posts, read 4,854,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
.......For that reason, I think a woman is better served with a 13oz can of real bear spray. It will put the perp back on his heels (unless he has more determination than an 800 pound bear) while she decides if he needs to die right then. And, if so, she can just keep the trigger down until he runs out of air........
That may be fine if you are standing still, but if you are moving in and out cover (especially if he can shoot back or he brought along friends), I would certainly hate to be caught in the vapors of my own defense screen.
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Old 03-24-2015, 03:12 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,340 posts, read 10,928,694 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
Women without a bullet proof vest and a utility belt on don't have the command presence to avoid a shooting when confronted. They have a split second to think about it and won't pull the trigger unless all other options have been exhausted.

For that reason, I think a woman is better served with a 13oz can of real bear spray. It will put the perp back on his heels (unless he has more determination than an 800 pound bear) while she decides if he needs to die right then. And, if so, she can just keep the trigger down until he runs out of air.



If she is gonna be in a shootout (doubtful), then she is gonna need something that insures a perp won't shoot back. And that ends the discussion of all of the reasonable lady handguns. Nothing will insure that but a 44 Mag or equivalent.
Mmmm...respectfully, that's a broad and , I feel, inaccurate, statement, regarding "command presence". Its not about command presence, or whether the lady in question is a professional war fighter or LEO. Its about will yo survive, and having the strength of character to do what needs doing, when it needs to be done. Gender has nothing to do with that, nor does profession.

Truthfully, I have to rather adamantly disagree with that theory. My personal experiences tell me it is quite incorrect. The beat spray LTL option is OK. Concentrated OC is wicked stuff, but , in reality and for all practical purposes, its not a big jump from that yo lethal force, in a terminal situation. The decision to fight is the same. I actually think there ate a LOT of civilian women out there, that are just as, of not lengths more capable, than most female cops. I don't say that as a slight to lady LEOs, I just think that the truth of it, is that cops , actually, have far more to analyze., split second, in a fighting situation, than civilians do.

The possibility that thoughts of a review board, or charges of excessive force etc, can middy things up, and cause that exhaustion of options thing, you mentioned, as bad, or worse, than what might be going through a civilians mind. So, I just think that proper credit, where its due, to the "fairer sex" is being shortchanged in your opening statement.
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Old 03-24-2015, 03:40 PM
Status: "A delicate snowflake with the vote of a wolverine." (set 16 hours ago)
 
Location: Houston, TX
13,249 posts, read 7,438,936 times
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I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is (if there is one). As a single female, I advocate responsible gun ownership for myself and other women. I saw something on Facebook several months ago that sums up my philosophy well. It was a poster showing an adult woman dressed in safety gear, teaching her pre-teen daughter (similarly attired) how to handle a semiautomatic handgun properly. The caption below read:

"Teach your daughters to shoot. Because a restraining order is just a piece of paper." As for a good home defense weapon, I prefer a 9mm semiatuomatic myself. I have a .22 pistol, but I have shot a variety of different calibers, including the hand cannons. I go to the range occasionally, and am making a concerted effort to get out there more often nowadays. I don't find .45s and their boom boom hand cannon ilk any better than my trusty old 9mm. Accuracy is way more important than caliber. The most powerful bullet in the world won't do you a lick of good if you suck at hitting your target
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Old 03-24-2015, 04:12 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,340 posts, read 10,928,694 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TamaraSavannah View Post
That may be fine if you are standing still, but if you are moving in and out cover (especially if he can shoot back or he brought along friends), I would certainly hate to be caught in the vapors of my own defense screen.
That's a fairly salient point, about...shifting ones own vapors. Its a pertinent thing to remember, about OC spray. If a high wind is up at the time you need the stuff, which is a common thing around here, high wind, its about worthless. It will either come back at you, or just get dissipated and thrown into the next county.

Multiple assailants are problematic, as well. Way I figure it, if you are being attacked on the street, by unknown assailants, its a sage assumption they intend to kill or maim you. The response should fit the intent. LTL options are good to have, but when its life or death, there are no half measures.

Some gropy creep getting handsy, sure, blast him with the OC, or throat him with the Kubaton and watch him gasp for air, but when handsy turns forcible, and you just know its going bad fast, there's no time to be kinder and gentler.
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Old 03-24-2015, 07:01 PM
 
10,139 posts, read 22,451,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
That's a fairly salient point, about...shifting ones own vapors. Its a pertinent thing to remember, about OC spray. If a high wind is up at the time you need the stuff, which is a common thing around here, high wind, its about worthless. It will either come back at you, or just get dissipated and thrown into the next county.

Multiple assailants are problematic, as well. Way I figure it, if you are being attacked on the street, by unknown assailants, its a sage assumption they intend to kill or maim you. The response should fit the intent. LTL options are good to have, but when its life or death, there are no half measures.

Some gropy creep getting handsy, sure, blast him with the OC, or throat him with the Kubaton and watch him gasp for air, but when handsy turns forcible, and you just know its going bad fast, there's no time to be kinder and gentler.

I am pretty sure that bear spray is lethal to humans. And, it squirts a stream 30' so as not to let the bear get too close to you. I suppose it might not work so well in a thunderstorm or a hurricane, I think a little wind is not going to mean anything.

I think that personal self defense OC spray is pretty pointless, but the reports on bear spray are convincing to say the least.
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Old 03-24-2015, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, Ca
5,764 posts, read 3,204,336 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txjl123 View Post
I don't think I can sway public opinion on gun values either. However, I do want to express my personal opinions on this.

I think there are situations that women felt the need of having a gun:

- a female real estate agent has to show a house in a rural area in after hours by herself.
- a female waitress got off work late at night walking to the parking lot.
- a female jogger alone running in a wooded area.
- a female employee going into underground parking garage of an office building in after hours.
- a single divorced woman living an apartment in a bad area.
- a lone female gas station attendant working late night shift.
...

I can go on and on ... I don't think crimes happen in most these situations. However, an armed person has a different feeling than a unarmed person in these situations.

In a home or work place situation I would agree, but when out and about... These attacks often come from behind and in a quick second with no time to draw a weapon. Even if you are walking or get out of your car with gun in hand.... Reaction time is going to make you or break you.
When it happened to me... I had just exited my car ( after looking around and seeing no one ) locked the doors, and as soon as I turned around I got sucker punched and knocked to the ground.
Even had I been armed I am not so sure that I could have reacted quickly enough...( It's hard to comprehend what's happening in a split second much less reacting, pulling a weapon and shooting someone).
It's easy to say what you'd do when in a discussion, but it's a whole new ball of wax when it's happening for real. And yes.. These type of crimes DO happen in the situations mentioned. Being armed might make one feel different, but may also give one a false sense of security. At the time I wasn't thinking that my life was in danger and by the time I figured it out... It was on!
Afterwards I had people say .. Well I would have done this or that, and my answer was that ...under the exact same circumstances... You'd have gotten a beating and raped just like I did. It's also easy to say that you would take another's life ( even if in self defense), but in reality I am not so sure many women could make that decision in that very short window of time. Just my $.02

Last edited by Sydney123; 03-24-2015 at 07:31 PM..
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Old 03-24-2015, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,774 posts, read 3,687,581 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
Women without a bullet proof vest and a utility belt on don't have the command presence to avoid a shooting when confronted. They have a split second to think about it and won't pull the trigger unless all other options have been exhausted.

For that reason, I think a woman is better served with a 13oz can of real bear spray. It will put the perp back on his heels (unless he has more determination than an 800 pound bear) while she decides if he needs to die right then. And, if so, she can just keep the trigger down until he runs out of air.

If she is gonna be in a shootout (doubtful), then she is gonna need something that insures a perp won't shoot back. And that ends the discussion of all of the reasonable lady handguns. Nothing will insure that but a 44 Mag or equivalent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
I am pretty sure that bear spray is lethal to humans. And, it squirts a stream 30' so as not to let the bear get too close to you. I suppose it might not work so well in a thunderstorm or a hurricane, I think a little wind is not going to mean anything.

I think that personal self defense OC spray is pretty pointless, but the reports on bear spray are convincing to say the least.
Wow... just wow... you have some interesting (and absolutely wrong) opinions about things. I'll ignore the quite insulting characterization of all females and let them defend themselves. Because most aren't as indecisive as you characterize and can defend themselves.

But your opinions of "bear spray" OC spray vs "self defense" OC spray can get someone killed. I'm not talking about the $4.99 keychain canister in the checkout aisle of the hardware store, I'm talking about good, quality, defense spray.
  • Bear spray does usually come in higher-volume canisters (to be worn on your hip or strapped to a pack) and usually sprays a concentrated stream over 25-ft. But you can get the exact same benefits in some human defense sprays. Better-quality human sprays that fit in your pocket can reach out over significant distances.
  • Bear sprays are limited by law to a max concentration of 2% OC, while human self-defense spray can be as high as 15% (depends on state, some are limited to 10%). Weaker bear spray is effective against the highly sensitive sinuses of a bear, but would only serve as a severe irritant to a human assailant; good, quality self-defense sprays can bring about full incapacitation.
  • Bear sprays are usually only OC and propellant, while good human sprays also contain visible- or UV-light marking dyes for positive identification later.
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Old 03-24-2015, 08:01 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,340 posts, read 10,928,694 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson513 View Post
I am pretty sure that bear spray is lethal to humans. And, it squirts a stream 30' so as not to let the bear get too close to you. I suppose it might not work so well in a thunderstorm or a hurricane, I think a little wind is not going to mean anything.

I think that personal self defense OC spray is pretty pointless, but the reports on bear spray are convincing to say the least.
45 mph winds are common around here. That's a lite breeze, here .But, a tight stream would probably hold up to a certain distance. Bear spray is supposed to be wicked stuff. My ex wife is a mail Cartier. I gave her a can of it . The stuff that USPS issues is worthless. They wouldn't let her carry it though. Far as I know, she still has it. The spray pattern diagram on the can, and the megaphone nozzle, were impressive looking. Like an OC Claymore. It was big and clumsy though. Would be hard to carry discreetly, methinks.

Meh... there's no perfect solutions. Mores the pity. A phase frequency plasma pistol, maybe. Settings adjustable from light stun to crispy critter.would be cool. Something in. A package about the size of , oh, one of those little Glocks, or a Colt Officers model. Lol. We can dream.
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