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Old 07-09-2015, 06:08 AM
 
Location: Florida
4,103 posts, read 4,013,315 times
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12 gauge buckshot. It doesnt matter what brand/shell/etc because any intruder that hears the chambering of a shotgun is NOT going to hang around to see if you can aim.
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Old 07-09-2015, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
7,832 posts, read 7,821,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmills View Post
How do you know then?
Found out about in the NRA magazine and researched the FBI stats myself.

Never have heard or read about it in the MSM media.
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Old 07-11-2015, 03:12 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
Risk vs. reward. I don't know about you, but I sometimes have kids in the house who may or may not be where they are supposed to be. In the vast majority of citizen-self-defense cases the perp starts running after the first shot. In that case, a lower-penetration round is ideal. It gets the perp on the run with a lowered (still not zero, but lowered) chance of stray pellets penetrating multiple walls. Personally I use #4 buck as the first shell in my 20-ga, but that's only because I can't find lead BB. Lots of LEOs used to use #4; they switched because it didn't have enough penetration at longer ranges, but I'm not shooting at longer ranges.

If I have to shoot more than once then it's the rare case where either there are more than one bad guys, and/or they are determined to do some harm, so the next four shots are #1 buckshot.

That said, I cannot think of a valid reason to load a slug round for residential defense; especially not stacked with buckshot.
This is a great argument for an M4 loaded with Hornady TAP 55gr. It may not be the best, but over-penetration is mitigated, and you know where EACH PROJECTILE GOES rather than unleashing a nest of them, some of which very well may miss or in the case of buckshot up very close (in the "whole pattern fits in a fist and I can't miss unless I would have missed with a rifle..." area), may over-penetrate because of 1 pellet tracking right behind the other through the perp.
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Old 07-11-2015, 03:16 AM
 
Location: NWA/SWMO
2,748 posts, read 2,614,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
Well, Threerun will have to give you the definitive answer, but I could imagine one might want to start with #4 Buck assuming the first shot will be taken relatively close, then shift to a bigger buckshot, then slugs, assuming each will be used at an increasingly long range. Of course this assumes a single perp, and begs the question if he's running, why are you still shooting, but, I can see a logic for doing this.

I can understand this train of thought, I don't really agree with it though. Like "Dutch" loading a revolver with a shot round up first, then the rest ball rounds (or even more complicated sequences) - I agree with you JWG - apply the KISS principle, in an actual shootout even experienced professionals can and do get confused, as you discussed.

The argument for #4 Buck being the best anti-personnel 12-GA shotgun round is discussed in "Survival" and "Survival Guns" by Mel Tappan. Of course the tactical state of the art like perps wearing body armor has changed some since this was published.
Survival and the like is VERY different from needing to apply controlled, very directed (innocents nearby, etc.) lethal force within a dwelling. The m4 loaded with something like Hornady TAP makes a lot of sense for use in thin-skinned structures if you wish to compromise barrier performance (which Buckshot has virtually zero in my experience, except on windshields, where it is wildly unpredictable, and a windshield likely isn't in your livingroom. Mostly oak and paper and cushions (books, sofa, furniture), none of which buckshot, even 00, is beans at dealing with).

I personally keep my M4 loaded with 64gr Gold Dots simply because I live in a brick/plaster structure currently, and up close those turn to slag when they encounter such. Very limited on sheetrock and stud and brick penetration, that round. However, it will go through a forearm and into a torso. This matters to me as hands/arms are VERY often the first targets bullets encounter during the shooting of an armed attacker, as they typically are in front of the perp's body (wielding a firearm or knife).
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Old 07-13-2015, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Spring Hill, Florida
2,981 posts, read 4,458,300 times
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Interesting read... It's always entertaining (as well as helpful) to read the various opinions on the subject.

Right now, I have a .357 in a pistol safe mounted inside my armoire with my clothes. It's hidden and secure, but easily accessibile if something ever goes down, God forbid.
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Old 07-13-2015, 03:47 PM
 
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
2,056 posts, read 1,838,721 times
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All these riots and this constant drum beat of race in the United states....Reminds this 39 year old of the civil rights riots of the 1960's, and the LA riots of 1993.

I live in Birmingham. Actually, south, in Shelby county. this is the place that Birmingham emptied into following the riots of the 60's, and the city just declined steadily after that.

Due to a recent conflict I was dragged into, I bought my first weapon, a 9mm pistol. It feels like we are in a dangerous time period again in this country. It feels like the criminal element feels justified to loot and riot, and not for civil rights, though that fight has been fought, and numerous civil liberties were granted because of it. No, this time it seems like a war against everyone else; property owners, police, businesses, and yes, whites.
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Old 07-14-2015, 11:46 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,886 posts, read 12,543,418 times
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in your home?

you get caught outside your home with a pistol, but inside your home, the best self defense firearm is a rifle. preferably a semi-auto. when you know that you are going to a possible gun fight, you always take a rifle.
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Old 07-14-2015, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
2,122 posts, read 1,444,511 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
in your home?

you get caught outside your home with a pistol, but inside your home, the best self defense firearm is a rifle. preferably a semi-auto. when you know that you are going to a possible gun fight, you always take a rifle.
A rifle in closed quarters inside your house? when a robber breaks in at night and you don't know exactly behind which corner he's in? With paper-thin walls and neighbors living in the apartment next to you?
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Old 07-14-2015, 11:57 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,886 posts, read 12,543,418 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brrabbit View Post
A rifle in closed quarters inside your house? when a robber breaks in at night and you don't know exactly behind which corner he's in? With paper-thin walls and neighbors living in the apartment next to you?


what paper thin walls? 8 inches of concrete is not paper thin. plus the nearest neighbor is 400 yards away over a hill.
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Old 07-14-2015, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
2,122 posts, read 1,444,511 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
what paper thin walls? 8 inches of concrete is not paper thin. plus the nearest neighbor is 400 yards away over a hill.
Well, a rifle is good to prevent looters from entering your house. Once inside though... In my opinion, rifle is too long.

Now, you might be living in a rural area where it is perfectly acceptable to meet any trespassers with your trusted AR-15 carefully aimed and ready... More people live in urban settings though.
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