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Old 06-10-2015, 09:45 PM
 
163 posts, read 168,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
For me carrying a firearm meant being on best behaviour. When not carrying I was more inclined to stand my ground. Getting into an argument when carrying is a bad idea.
Yup. A random can tell me I have a small penis, that my girlfriend is fat, and that I'm ugly. If I'm carrying, I agree and walk away.

Once the arguing starts you have no idea if the aggressor is going to get physical. If it get physical, and that gun comes out and hurts someone, you will have a lot of explaining to do.

On a bit of a different note...

If a bad guy is mugging me for my wallet and has a knife drawn on me I give him my wallet if I believe that will solve the situation. If he was going to kill me he wouldn't have asked for my wallet.

Is shooting a guy worth the money or contents of your wallet? It is probably justifiable in court, but is it really worth it?
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Old 06-11-2015, 05:07 AM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,518 posts, read 2,600,972 times
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Quote:
Is shooting a guy worth the money or contents of your wallet? It is probably justifiable in court, but is it really worth it?
No, not in my opinion. Heck, I couldn't even put down my cat! But then again, when I thought my life was in danger I had no hesitations but I didn't go in shooting first and asking (or not asking) questions later.

Quote:
"If you don't KNOW where the bullet is going when you pull the trigger, assume it will ALWAYS land in a police evidence bag."
Aside from getting into trouble with the law, there is the human tragedy side to think about. We have folks who accidentally kill their own kids. Mostly with a car but occasionally with a gun. Not only their own kids but someone else's kid.

Something that puzzles me with all this concealed carry permit stuff; why in heavens name does one require a permit for concealed carry? It should be compulsory to carry concealed. It was where I came from. Exposed carry was a serious offence, as it should be.

I once walked into a shop and there was this person whom I assumed was a police officer with a firearm in a back holster bending over some item of interest to him, I looked at him and figured how easy it would be to push him from behind and snatch his gun out it's holster and shoot him in the back. Or just run off with it, or rob him of his wallet. What an arrogant idiot!
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Old 06-11-2015, 06:55 AM
 
18,005 posts, read 9,883,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurst 4 View Post
I'll say this guys.....a box a year won't get it done. Even shooting four boxes every 3-4 months won't get it done. Do what you have to do to prove these people wrong that say "someone will just take your weapon and use it on you". Tired of hearing that lame cop-out and unknowledgeable excuse. Remember the story awhile back where the gas station clerk/owner had a HK P7 PSP squeeze-cocker and the perp who took it from him was too dumb to figure out how it worked? While fumbling around the clerk/owner also had a GLOCK G-27 .40 S&W loaded and for backup. The clerk/owner shot and killed the would be shooter/robber with the HK P7 PSP in his hand. Still scratching his head as to how to get it to fire too, I might add.
What they are counting on--whether they realize it or not--is for the criminal to do everything wrong for at least the first few minutes.

Back in the late 70s, early 80s, I was in a pistolcraft club that had some Air Force ParaRescue and Navy SEALs as members. I considered it training, for them it was just some extra gun-handling time.

Those men were amazing. Most people don't realize that making that level of speed, strength, and skill is not merely a matter of determination, but also gifted genetics. Those are Olympic-level athletes at what they do.

But we did many "urban combat" scenarios, like sitting at a restaurant table when "surprised" by a multiple red shooters, or by one red shooter first and then a second red shooter a minute later, with varying numbers of non-shooter greens and good-shooter blues.

Main thing I learned is that if I'm sitting in a restaurant with my wife and daughter, I, too, would have to depend on the bad guys to do everything wrong for at least the first minute or so. At least start shooting people on the other side of the room first.

Being armed, for me, means being able to make an armed escape with my wife and daughter, if I'm unlucky enough that they start shooting on my side of the room first.
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Old 06-11-2015, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Florida & Cebu, Philippines
2,808 posts, read 2,243,729 times
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I have not bothered to read every post, but once I was allowed to carry a firearm which was back 46 years ago, it made me much more likely to stay out of harms way. Many years later when I got a concealed weapons permit, I felt even more so, so again I felt using a firearm against another person was a big responsibility that should be avoided, if at all possible, so I would tell a person starting an argument or having a road rage issue, that they were correct and that I was sorry, even when I was in the right, rather than being forced to get to a point where I might have to use my firearm, but sometimes, when backed into a corner with no way out, then using deadly force was forced upon me, not because I wanted to, but because I had no other choice.

Using a firearm against another should be the very last resort and IMO a person should never let their ego stand in the way or settling a dispute. IMHO it takes a bigger man to back down than it takes to win a battle but sometimes, some people take kindness for weakness and then may leave a person no other choice.

A person should always remember that just because they win a gun fight does not mean the won the fight, their conscious may never let them forget that they took a life and living with that the rest of their life and always second guessing if there could have been another way out, can be much worse than ending up with a bruised ego.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,774 posts, read 3,686,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
"If you don't KNOW where the bullet is going when you pull the trigger, assume it will ALWAYS land in a police evidence bag."
Aside from getting into trouble with the law, there is the human tragedy side to think about. We have folks who accidentally kill their own kids. Mostly with a car but occasionally with a gun. Not only their own kids but someone else's kid.
That's what he was talking about. Not about getting in trouble for a random shot, but because the bullet hit a person or caused property damage somewhere down range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwilliger View Post
If a bad guy is mugging me for my wallet and has a knife drawn on me I give him my wallet if I believe that will solve the situation. If he was going to kill me he wouldn't have asked for my wallet.

Is shooting a guy worth the money or contents of your wallet? It is probably justifiable in court, but is it really worth it?
Something else the instructor said, "What you are defending had better be worth everything you own before you decide to shoot." Because that's what you'll have to sell to pay your defense attorney if the media decides to pressure the prosecutor to ignore the evidence (think Zimmerman), or some mother sues in civil court because her sweet baby would never ever ever rob anyone. A life (yours or a loved one's) is worth it. No single possession is. I'm not saying I would just willingly hand over my wallet if someone demands it, but neither would I immediately draw and fire.
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Old 06-11-2015, 08:52 AM
 
18,005 posts, read 9,883,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
That's what he was talking about. Not about getting in trouble for a random shot, but because the bullet hit a person or caused property damage somewhere down range.

Something else the instructor said, "What you are defending had better be worth everything you own before you decide to shoot." Because that's what you'll have to sell to pay your defense attorney if the media decides to pressure the prosecutor to ignore the evidence (think Zimmerman), or some mother sues in civil court because her sweet baby would never ever ever rob anyone. A life (yours or a loved one's) is worth it. No single possession is. I'm not saying I would just willingly hand over my wallet if someone demands it, but neither would I immediately draw and fire.
That made me think of the good ol' Old Testament days that a lot of people in my area like to harken back to.

In the Mosaic Law, someone who killed another by accident or in anything other than immediate self defense had to leave his home town and live for the rest of his life in a designated sanctuary city. You couldn't just kill someone even by accident and go on living your normal life.
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
7,848 posts, read 7,835,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurst 4 View Post
Two ways to look at it. Unless you qualify pistol expert or above, I wouldn't want just any old guy who shoots 50 rounds a year firing in a building full of small children. Even at expert and above levels of proficiency, it's a dangerous move doing so.
From what I was told by three relatives who served (or are serving) for decades in three different police departments (Dallas, Kerrville, St. Louis) - the majority of their fellow officers only fired the minimum rounds for their annual qualification requirements.

I'd venture to safely guess that a much higher percentage of Texas CHL holders have a lot more range time & are better shots than your average cop. Not everybody in Blue is a Callahan or Riggs.
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,774 posts, read 3,686,291 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
That made me think of the good ol' Old Testament days that a lot of people in my area like to harken back to.

In the Mosaic Law, someone who killed another by accident or in anything other than immediate self defense had to leave his home town and live for the rest of his life in a designated sanctuary city. You couldn't just kill someone even by accident and go on living your normal life.
IMO, that law was both a blessing and a curse. The killer had to give up everything and leave (similar to prison), but also he was protected from revenge-killing by the deceased's family. A lot of Mosaic law is based on fairness (as long as you were male... women were essentially property, so no fairness anywhere for them). The oft-quoted "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" was more about limiting retribution than about guaranteeing it. If someone punches you in the mouth and knocks out a tooth, the law limits the retribution to simply punching him back. If you got punched and escalated the confrontation by drawing a sword then you became the aggressor and were at fault.

Bringing this back on topic, we come to the Use of Force Continuum (Presence - Verbal - Empty Hand - Intermediate Weapon - Deadly Force) . Whoever escalates the situation to a higher level becomes the aggressor, but it's not simple. For example, a 250-lb muscular thug could kill a 120-lb female with his bare hands. So just a verbal threat while being in range of a fist could arguably be already in the "deadly force" zone. On the other hand, a p**sed-off 120-lb woman starts screaming, slapping, and hitting a 250-lb man, there is almost no way she could kill him. Humiliate, yes; kill, no. So drawing a weapon at that point would be a huge escalation of force.

So again, the goal of CCW classes isn't to teach people how to handle a weapon in a crowded area. The goal is to teach people when they are and aren't allowed to use a weapon.
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,034 posts, read 8,095,555 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green papaya View Post
From my observation over the years hearing about or reading about shootings in the news, it seems a large percentage of confrontations that happen could have been avoided just by backing down or not arguing or talking back with the other person? everybody is taught to never back down, dont be afraid, dont let somebody tell you what to do, etc, everybody thinks they are so macho, everybody has to be a tough guy?

since I dont carry a personal defense firearm, I always back down, I never try to be the tough guy, I dont give people the bird, or argue with strangers, this prevents 90% of any type of confrontation or violence, dont butt heads with people and most of the time they will leave you alone.
Didn't read all the other posts so maybe someone mentioned this already but The first thing the taught in my CCW class is not to shoot anyone! Always back down if you can, always. The last thing you want to do is drop the hammer! If you have to, I think you should expect a life changing experience and perhaps not a good one.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:21 PM
 
18,005 posts, read 9,883,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
IMO, that law was both a blessing and a curse. The killer had to give up everything and leave (similar to prison), but also he was protected from revenge-killing by the deceased's family. A lot of Mosaic law is based on fairness (as long as you were male... women were essentially property, so no fairness anywhere for them). The oft-quoted "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" was more about limiting retribution than about guaranteeing it. If someone punches you in the mouth and knocks out a tooth, the law limits the retribution to simply punching him back. If you got punched and escalated the confrontation by drawing a sword then you became the aggressor and were at fault.
Absolutely. It prevented "Hatfield/McCoy" blood feuds.

Quote:
Bringing this back on topic, we come to the Use of Force Continuum (Presence - Verbal - Empty Hand - Intermediate Weapon - Deadly Force) . Whoever escalates the situation to a higher level becomes the aggressor, but it's not simple. For example, a 250-lb muscular thug could kill a 120-lb female with his bare hands. So just a verbal threat while being in range of a fist could arguably be already in the "deadly force" zone. On the other hand, a p**sed-off 120-lb woman starts screaming, slapping, and hitting a 250-lb man, there is almost no way she could kill him. Humiliate, yes; kill, no. So drawing a weapon at that point would be a huge escalation of force.

So again, the goal of CCW classes isn't to teach people how to handle a weapon in a crowded area. The goal is to teach people when they are and aren't allowed to use a weapon.
Yes. Distance, physical position, and other issues are also under consideration. Even then....

...as I said earlier, the armed citizen cannot afford to lose a fistfight. Real life fist fights aren't like television where you get beaten into unconsciousness and then show up the next day at the office with a little bandage on your eyebrow.

Unless the other person really is a 98-lb weakling, I know that losing what I know would be only a fistfight might still well result in my serious permanent injury or death. If I can't back my way out of even a fist fight...I might have to end it as a gunfight.
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