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Old 06-11-2015, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Chattanooga, TN
2,773 posts, read 3,677,539 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
...as I said earlier, the armed citizen cannot afford to lose a fistfight. Real life fist fights aren't like television where you get beaten into unconsciousness and then show up the next day at the office with a little bandage on your eyebrow.

Unless the other person really is a 98-lb weakling, I know that losing what I know would be only a fistfight might still well result in my serious permanent injury or death. If I can't back my way out of even a fist fight...I might have to end it as a gunfight.
To follow up on this, if there is the remotest possibility you may lose, you cannot even allow a fist-fight to start. I've spoken with both police and defense attorneys, and they all agree. If two people are fighting and one draws a gun, it does not matter who started the fight. The person drawing the weapon has escalated the confrontation, becomes the aggressor, and will likely be arrested.

The gray area here is if person [one] attacks person [two] with fists, and person [two] tries to avoid deadly force by just defending himself using the same level of force. If the fight gets worse, he is no longer able to defend himself, and draws a gun, then is person [two] the aggressor? If he threw a single punch, or even if he didn't but witnesses say he did, then he could be.

So yeah, if diplomacy fails, then drawing a weapon could be the only safe course of action... but only if it is your first physical action.

Last edited by jwkilgore; 06-11-2015 at 03:30 PM..
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Earth
4,506 posts, read 5,254,415 times
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ALL hypothetical strawman nonsense...this whole conversation is a projection of someone afraid of guns and how they might feel or react when carrying themselves.


If you feel that you're MORE likely to get into trouble by having a gun then don't.

Just don't insult the intelligence and behavior of the hundreds of thousands of perfectly capable and responsible people that do carry everyday without incidence.
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Old 06-11-2015, 03:41 PM
 
17,895 posts, read 9,831,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwkilgore View Post
To follow up on this, if there is the remotest possibility you may lose, you cannot even allow a fist-fight to start. I've spoken with both police and defense attorneys, and they all agree. If two people are fighting and one draws a gun, it does not matter who started the fight. The person drawing the weapon has escalated the confrontation, becomes the aggressor, and will likely be arrested.
Right. When you have a gun, you can afford to look like you have no balls. That's the way it is.

Hopefully, when I suddenly say, "Hey, pal, you're right. You take this seat. I'll just leave," he may realize, "Dang, that sure de-escalated quickly. That guy must have had a gun. I just dodged a bullet."

Quote:
The gray area here is if person [one] attacks person [two] with fists, and person [two] tries to avoid deadly force by just defending himself using the same level of force. If the fight gets worse, he is no longer able to defend himself, and draws a gun, then is person [two] the aggressor? If he threw a single punch, or even if he didn't but witnesses say he did, then he could be.

So yeah, if diplomacy fails, then drawing a weapon could be the only safe course of action... but only if it is your first physical action.
The Zimmerman case proves you can pull your weapon when you're losing and still use self-defense as a defense--at least in Florida. But whatever I might think of the other elements of that case aside, if the other guy simply won't let me back down no matter what, I still can't afford the lucky punch that crushes my eyeball.

Danged thing is, some state laws won't even permit an armed retreat, that is, to draw and then keep backing away. In some states it seems that a gun once drawn must be fired and when fired must be aimed for a sure stop...or else you're "brandishing" or "reckless endangering."
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Old 06-12-2015, 02:20 AM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,508 posts, read 2,589,479 times
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Quote:
Danged thing is, some state laws won't even permit an armed retreat, that is, to draw and then keep backing away. In some states it seems that a gun once drawn must be fired and when fired must be aimed for a sure stop...or else you're "brandishing" or "reckless endangering."
That's rough! Then again, if the drawn gun serves to change the aggressors mind and then one just backs away quietly, who is going to know? It's a better option than actually shooting someone when he's backed down, even when he deserves to get shot.
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Old 06-12-2015, 04:13 AM
 
Location: SWUS
5,414 posts, read 7,626,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green papaya View Post
From my observation over the years hearing about or reading about shootings in the news, it seems a large percentage of confrontations that happen could have been avoided just by backing down or not arguing or talking back with the other person? everybody is taught to never back down, dont be afraid, dont let somebody tell you what to do, etc, everybody thinks they are so macho, everybody has to be a tough guy?

since I dont carry a personal defense firearm, I always back down, I never try to be the tough guy, I dont give people the bird, or argue with strangers, this prevents 90% of any type of confrontation or violence, dont butt heads with people and most of the time they will leave you alone.
No, generally carrying makes people less confrontational.

Unfortunately, idiocy is a human trait unrelated to whether one owns or carries a firearm and thus sometimes two idiots find each other and one out-idiots the other.


“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.”
― Albert Einstein
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Old 06-13-2015, 01:48 PM
 
17 posts, read 9,878 times
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There's guys who talk about it and feel all warm and secure owning and carrying a firearm. Then there are guys who actually have the stones to pull the trigger with little to no remorse whatsoever. Never confuse the two.
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:41 PM
 
17,895 posts, read 9,831,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUPER 1050 View Post
There's guys who talk about it and feel all warm and secure owning and carrying a firearm. Then there are guys who actually have the stones to pull the trigger with little to no remorse whatsoever. Never confuse the two.
There are more types of guys than that.
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:52 PM
 
17 posts, read 9,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
There are more types of guys than that.
What's the first thing they teach anyone who was formally trained?

Dehumanize your enemy....don't look into his eyes or see his face. Don't think about his wife, girlfriend, mother, father or children. This guy was sent here to end your life. End his first.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:11 PM
 
7,325 posts, read 3,748,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
For me carrying a firearm meant being on best behaviour. When not carrying I was more inclined to stand my ground. Getting into an argument when carrying is a bad idea.
And I thought I was the only one (not really) but I find myself reacting the same way. When I'm carrying I'm more apologetic, willing to just walk away, or in short do pretty much anything to avoid a confrontation. Without a gun, even though I have mellowed significantly with age, I'm still pretty quick with the temper.
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Old 06-13-2015, 03:17 PM
 
17 posts, read 9,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWiseWino View Post
And I thought I was the only one (not really) but I find myself reacting the same way. When I'm carrying I'm more apologetic, willing to just walk away, or in short do pretty much anything to avoid a confrontation. Without a gun, even though I have mellowed significantly with age, I'm still pretty quick with the temper.
That's entirely different than shooting a guy because he called your wife fat. Hardly the same as a perp with a weapon, rap sheet and motive/plan of attacking you. If you are "thinking" during a scenario such as that, you're thinking way too much. Check your surroundings, acknowledge the threat, draw and fire. With any luck he'll die before he has the chance to stab or shoot you.
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