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Old 07-18-2015, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Richmond
1,408 posts, read 699,315 times
Reputation: 1527

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Quote:
Originally Posted by brrabbit View Post
In some states, you don't pass background check (for newly acquired guns!) if you have any unpaid tickets. And that's kind of fair. And that is government overstepping its boundaries because it can.

But then again, if you want to get a gun without a check, just go to gun show, or check some billboards at local gun clubs. Or ask a buddy to buy one.
What you are referring to with a Gun show is a private sale between two parties, Party A selling a firearm to Party B. And to do so Party A is supposed to use best judgment, for example Party A says to Party B; are you Party B? And if so can I see some identification that you are in fact Party B? That is was is considered Best Judgment.

Going to a Licensed gun dealer takes it two steps further. The dealer needs to see your License/passport or other form of identification with your photo on it; also the dealer needs to see another form of identification with the same address on it. And lastly the gun dealer than takes this information and contacts the NICS background system, to see if you are eligible to own a firearm. This is the exact same process that a licensed gun dealer must follow at a Gun show.

Just as if you were to go to a car show, you will find a larger number of Car Enthusiastsí; the same holds true if you go to a Gun Show, you will find a larger number of people who like firearms. By the sheer number of people at a gun show, you can increase the chances of buying or selling a firearm; just because of more people in the same place with similar interests.
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Old 07-18-2015, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
2,122 posts, read 1,441,893 times
Reputation: 2325
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigby06 View Post
In some states, you don't pass background check (for newly acquired guns!) if you have any unpaid tickets. And that's kind of fair. And that is government overstepping its boundaries because it can.
Actually, 2nd amendmend declares that people's right (in general!) to keep and bear should not be totally eliminated. It doesn't say that each and every individual has such unalienable right (i.e. inmates, psyciatric patients, etc), neighter says that a person can keep and bear arms everywhere without limitation (in 17th century there also were limitaions of gun usage and carry, such as muskets were asked to be unloaded before going into a bar), as long as majority of population is capable to own a gun, and to carry it to most places.
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Old 07-18-2015, 03:43 PM
 
48,519 posts, read 81,013,914 times
Reputation: 17978
Quote:
Originally Posted by brrabbit View Post
In some states, you don't pass background check (for newly acquired guns!) if you have any unpaid tickets. And that's kind of fair.

But then again, if you want to get a gun without a check, just go to gun show, or check some billboards at local gun clubs. Or ask a buddy to buy one.
That is not a background check but only a incentive for people to pay their tickets; LOL. That is Unless your thing those who don't pay are more dangerous.
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Old 07-18-2015, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
2,122 posts, read 1,441,893 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
That is not a background check but only a incentive for people to pay their tickets; LOL. That is Unless your thing those who don't pay are more dangerous.
By the same token, the new Obama initiative is a good incentive for people who are claiming their inability to work due to mental illnesses, to start looking for job and get off the welfare.

I've met some absolutely healthy folks, who were "mentally disabled" and were getting paychecks, food stamps, affordable housing and were enjoying their lives doing nothing. All it takes is to bribe the right doctor and get prescription.
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Old 07-18-2015, 07:47 PM
 
191 posts, read 147,286 times
Reputation: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by brrabbit View Post
Actually, 2nd amendmend declares that people's right (in general!) to keep and bear should not be totally eliminated. It doesn't say that each and every individual has such unalienable right (i.e. inmates, psyciatric patients, etc), neighter says that a person can keep and bear arms everywhere without limitation (in 17th century there also were limitaions of gun usage and carry, such as muskets were asked to be unloaded before going into a bar), as long as majority of population is capable to own a gun, and to carry it to most places.

If you believe the above do you also go believe that the government can only shut down a newspaper when it really, really, wants to? Does free speech extend only so far as the Government decides it does? Is there a restriction on beating a suspect until he confesses, except in times of emergency?

The language of the second amendment is clear:


"Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"


For years, people desperate to say it doesn't mean what it says clung to the belief that the "well regulated militia" referred to above made this right a collective, rather than an individual right. Unfortunately for them the SCOTUS ruled in Heller that the right mentioned in an individual one, just like every other right enumerated in the Bill of Rights.

Just as the First Amendment does not give a person the right to yell "fire!" in a crowded theater, or prohibit libel suits against the press, there may be reasonable limits to the use of firearms. That does NOT impact the right to keep and bear arms.

I would prefer that the right to vote be connected to the right to keep and bear arms. If someone is unfit to own a 22 for reason of mental defect, that person should also be questionable as far as making good decisions in the voting booth. Just think of the uproar if we denied people an unnamed right in the Constitution as readily as we try to deny them a right specifically enumerated in the Second Amendment.
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Old 07-18-2015, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
2,122 posts, read 1,441,893 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip OK View Post
If you believe the above do you also go believe that the government can only shut down a newspaper when it really, really, wants to? Does free speech extend only so far as the Government decides it does? Is there a restriction on beating a suspect until he confesses, except in times of emergency?
Should inmates also be able to carry? We're talking here about restriction on buying new guns by people who call themselves mentallly incapable to work. Want to buy a gun? Don't call yourself metally disabled, don't ask for government paycheck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip OK View Post
The language of the second amendment is clear:

"Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

...

Just as the First Amendment does not give a person the right to yell "fire!" in a crowded theater, or prohibit libel suits against the press, there may be reasonable limits to the use of firearms. That does NOT impact the right to keep and bear arms.
It is clear indeed. The word "infringed" means "fully denied", the word "the people" means not every individual, but rather majority of people with some reasonable exceptions. So, indeed, the right of american public in general to own and carry firearms shall not be totally prohibited. But you said it yourself, one cannot yell "fire", and metally handicapped people probably should not be allowed to purchase firearms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip OK View Post
I would prefer that the right to vote be connected to the right to keep and bear arms. If someone is unfit to own a 22 for reason of mental defect, that person should also be questionable as far as making good decisions in the voting booth. Just think of the uproar if we denied people an unnamed right in the Constitution as readily as we try to deny them a right specifically enumerated in the Second Amendment.
Here we would agree. Not mentally fit to work, not mentally fit to make good vote.
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Old 07-18-2015, 09:37 PM
 
191 posts, read 147,286 times
Reputation: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by brrabbit View Post
Should inmates also be able to carry? We're talking here about restriction on buying new guns by people who call themselves mentallly incapable to work. Want to buy a gun? Don't call yourself metally disabled, don't ask for government paycheck.

Should an inmate be allowed his/her free speech rights? If yes, then yes. The fact is that "inmates" are regularly denied full access to their "rights" either works in all direction or it doesn't work in any direction


It is clear indeed. The word "infringed" means "fully denied", the word "the people" means not every individual, but rather majority of people with some reasonable exceptions. So, indeed, the right of american public in general to own and carry firearms shall not be totally prohibited. But you said it yourself, one cannot yell "fire", and metally handicapped people probably should not be allowed to purchase firearms.

I'm sorry to inform you, but the Supreme Court has already ruled that this particular right of the people is an INDIVIDUAL right. I know it hurts to be wrong, but if you can ignore the Heller decision, why can't somebody like Sherriff Joe, ignore, say the Miranda decision? I would also compare the right to keep and bear arms to the right of a fee press. If a newspaper libels you, you can seek damages without harming the right to a free press; bad actions while exercising your rights can get you into trouble.


Here we would agree. Not mentally fit to work, not mentally fit to make good vote.

The trouble with your interpretation of the Second Amendment is that it makes the whole thing meaningless. If we have the right to keep and bear arms, or to free speech, or to be free from illegal searches and seizures, but those rights may be extinguished at the whim of the Government, the we DO NOT have those rights.
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Old 07-18-2015, 10:16 PM
 
1,176 posts, read 1,896,365 times
Reputation: 1397
Quote:
Originally Posted by brrabbit View Post
You don't want to lose your right to own a gun, don't claim you're mentally uncapable of work.
I don't think that's rightly thought. I'm able to get behind a measure that actually and reasonably addresses a problem that legitimately exists... But this is BS.
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Old 07-18-2015, 10:23 PM
 
Location: West Phoenix
769 posts, read 889,444 times
Reputation: 1894
if all it takes for someone to lose their 2nd rights is to be financially irresponsible, does that mean everyone in congress is now banned from owning a firearm ?
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Old 07-18-2015, 10:35 PM
 
1,176 posts, read 1,896,365 times
Reputation: 1397
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigby06 View Post
What you are referring to with a Gun show is a private sale between two parties, Party A selling a firearm to Party B. And to do so Party A is supposed to use best judgment, for example Party A says to Party B; are you Party B? And if so can I see some identification that you are in fact Party B? That is was is considered Best Judgment.

Going to a Licensed gun dealer takes it two steps further. The dealer needs to see your License/passport or other form of identification with your photo on it; also the dealer needs to see another form of identification with the same address on it. And lastly the gun dealer than takes this information and contacts the NICS background system, to see if you are eligible to own a firearm. This is the exact same process that a licensed gun dealer must follow at a Gun show.

Just as if you were to go to a car show, you will find a larger number of Car Enthusiastsí; the same holds true if you go to a Gun Show, you will find a larger number of people who like firearms. By the sheer number of people at a gun show, you can increase the chances of buying or selling a firearm; just because of more people in the same place with similar interests.
This is a digression, but would you have sold a gun out of your personal collection to Seung Hui Cho, Elliot Roger or James Homes?

My point being that I think a reasonable person's better judgement is often better than an NICS check...
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