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Old 07-19-2015, 12:29 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
2,127 posts, read 1,457,225 times
Reputation: 2325

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip OK View Post
The trouble with your interpretation of the Second Amendment is that it makes the whole thing meaningless. If we have the right to keep and bear arms, or to free speech, or to be free from illegal searches and seizures, but those rights may be extinguished at the whim of the Government, the we DO NOT have those rights.
So, you insist that you can Fire in a theater... ? And obviouisly every person in usa must have the right to keep and bear, including inmates, and mental institution patients? Is that right?

One obviously need machine-gun to defend Earth from Marcians, you know.
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Old 07-19-2015, 12:37 AM
 
1,176 posts, read 1,909,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brrabbit View Post
So, you insist that you can Fire in a theater... ? And obviouisly every person in usa must have the right to keep and bear, including inmates, and mental institution patients? Is that right?

One obviously need machine-gun to defend Earth from Marcians, you know.
A tiny bit of a non-sequitur
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Old 07-19-2015, 12:44 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
2,127 posts, read 1,457,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleonidas View Post
A tiny bit of a non-sequitur
Why so? If you insist that _everybody_ has irrevokable right to keep and bear firearms, including people who are claiming to be unable to obtain work due to _mental_ illness, then you should be consistent.
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Old 07-19-2015, 12:47 AM
 
Location: Richmond
1,432 posts, read 710,005 times
Reputation: 1553
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigby06 View Post
What you are referring to with a Gun show is a private sale between two parties, Party A selling a firearm to Party B. And to do so Party A is supposed to use best judgment, for example Party A says to Party B; are you Party B? And if so can I see some identification that you are in fact Party B? That is was is considered Best Judgment.

Going to a Licensed gun dealer takes it two steps further. The dealer needs to see your License/passport or other form of identification with your photo on it; also the dealer needs to see another form of identification with the same address on it. And lastly the gun dealer than takes this information and contacts the NICS background system, to see if you are eligible to own a firearm. This is the exact same process that a licensed gun dealer must follow at a Gun show.

Just as if you were to go to a car show, you will find a larger number of Car Enthusiastsí; the same holds true if you go to a Gun Show, you will find a larger number of people who like firearms. By the sheer number of people at a gun show, you can increase the chances of buying or selling a firearm; just because of more people in the same place with similar interests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleonidas View Post
This is a digression, but would you have sold a gun out of your personal collection to Seung Hui Cho, Elliot Roger or James Homes?

My point being that I think a reasonable person's better judgement is often better than an NICS check...
I have only sold firearms to people that I already worked with, at my company it is a very large bank, I was already finger printed when I came to work here; and I know they run a credit check and a background check. I saw a contractor or two that was about to be hired full time, be let go only to have the Sheriff waiting outside; since they had a outstanding warrant, and were then picked up. Now it is not the NICS system, but it is not a perfect stranger either.
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Old 07-19-2015, 08:11 AM
 
1,176 posts, read 1,909,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brrabbit View Post
Why so? If you insist that _everybody_ has irrevokable right to keep and bear firearms, including people who are claiming to be unable to obtain work due to _mental_ illness, then you should be consistent.
I don't think that anyone would have a reasonable objection to the loss of certain rights after a felony conviction or after being adjudicated as mentally incompetent or that free speech does not extend to willful reckless endangerment; that's not the WHIM of the government but rather due process. The genesis of this thread is a matter of whim and a solution that lacks a problem.
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Old 07-19-2015, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
2,127 posts, read 1,457,225 times
Reputation: 2325
why one is acceptable, but the other is not?
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Old 07-19-2015, 01:12 PM
 
Location: West Madison^WMHT
3,181 posts, read 2,775,911 times
Reputation: 3840
Thumbs down Rights may be abridged individually after due process in court, not in bulk based on SS categorization

Quote:
Originally Posted by brrabbit View Post
why one is acceptable, but the other is not?
Why is restricting the rights of individuals acceptable after due process is followed, but losing rights on the whim of the government or the personal opinion of some random bureaucrat is not acceptable? So if somebody is mentally stable enough to live independently but just has issues balancing a checkbook, they can't vote, should lose their constitutional rights? Is that what you're advocating?

In the USA, rights aren't negotiable, may only be abridged individually after due process in a court of law, not arbitrarily and en masse based on Social Security claim status.
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Old 07-20-2015, 09:38 AM
 
1,176 posts, read 1,909,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brrabbit View Post
why one is acceptable, but the other is not?
Nonesuch has essentially set out my feelings on the matter, but I'm curious to know why you think that arbitrary dictation without justification is or should be equivalent to due process through common law?
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Old 07-20-2015, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
2,127 posts, read 1,457,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleonidas View Post
Nonesuch has essentially set out my feelings on the matter, but I'm curious to know why you think that arbitrary dictation without justification is or should be equivalent to due process through common law?
Justification is simple, to give incentive to all who are on the government check claiming disability due to mental disorder of some sort, to either live up to their claims, or to start looking for a job. I don't believe patients of mental institutions are allowed currently to buy new firearms. And adding to the group those, who claim they are mentally disabled sounds right to me.
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Old 07-20-2015, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
2,127 posts, read 1,457,225 times
Reputation: 2325
Just for clarification, I consider myself one of the right-wing gun nuts and fully support 2nd amendment. (not that it ever helped in any discussion when there's a disagreement). I believe every able bodied man or women should be able to buy a firearms without any registration checks, and allowed to carry. The key distinction between our positions are "able bodied", as in "suited to be a part of militia". Obviously, I don't mean that people who suffer from loss of leg or hand, or any other medical problems should be excluded from gun ownership. But I think being of solid mind is essential. And if you claim yourself, you're not, through application for SSA disability, then in my mind, such person should not be allowed to purchase a gun.
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