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Old 09-13-2017, 11:49 PM
 
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What was/is the purpose of the small submachine guns? Who were the primary target markets?

By small submachine guns I am referring to the mac-10s, tec-9s, Kiparis, Skorpions, short Uzis, the MP5K, and all the weapons similar. Even the Glock 18s, or the auto convertible beretta pistols.

Who has a need a gun like that? Why not just use a hand gun? Why the need for such a small rapid fire weapon? You will run out of bullets very quickly. They did not have long range accuracy. Single shots probably more useful in such short distance engagements.
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Old 09-14-2017, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Charlotte
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My guess would be for commando units to clear out rooms in urban warfare......bout all I got. I would like one though.
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Old 09-14-2017, 12:35 PM
 
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PDW's - personal defense weapons. Usage really is limited - portability and the ability to spray lots of bullets in a small space are the major benefits. They do have some military usage in that capacity, maybe flight and tanks crews and as said in commando units in sweeping a room.

For civilians it would be a range toy, and there is nothing wrong with that. My local gun dealer had a used TEC-9 for sale that I was somewhat interested in, but they have a jam-o-matic reputation. Still, the cool factor at the range!
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Old 09-14-2017, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
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They are generally used to clear enemy bunkers, pillboxes, rooms and caves. They are short range weapons that throw a lot of bullets, like a shotgun, in a small space that is not strong enough to be cleared with a grenade. One of the US WW2 was a very simple recoil driven "burp" gun (damn: I cannot remember the designation). The barrel could be quickly changed and even operated when bent at an angle for shooting around corners. It used .45 ACP ammunition.


The Thompson was another submachine gun. It was heavier than a burp gun and far more complicated. It still worked in close range warfare.


Note: many soldiers have a difficult time learning how to shoot a pistol (Colt .45 semi auto) well enough to be as effective as a submachine gun with a two hand grip.


I cannot think of a non-criminal civilian use besides fun at a range. Criminal uses are the same as military. Clear close spaces quickly.
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Old 09-14-2017, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Texas
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They are worthless in any scenario. Take a MAC-10. There are 2 predominate chamberings, 9mm and 45acp. The 9mm has a cycle rate of 1350 rounds per minute while the 45 has a rate of 1100 rounds per minute. They use a 30 round mag. I'll let you do the math in how long it takes to empty a full mag but I will say this, in all of them I shot, the first empty casing from the gun isn't even half way to the ground when the last round goes off. It's like you took a handful of brass and threw it in the air. There is no such thing as accuracy from one. Like it was stated before, these types of weapons are great if you are in a fire fight in a phone booth.

Okay, to elaborate on the cycle rate. The 9mm is running at 22.5 rounds per second. Consider that the average reaction time is 3/4 of a second, you'll empty a 30 round mag faster than you can react to getting off of the trigger. That's been pretty much my experience with it. The least amount of of rounds we've ever gotten off on one is 8 rounds and that's with a lot of trial and error and a boatload of ammo. I never could get off that few of rounds. Once the trigger breaks, in a little over a second, the gun is empty. Pure worthless for a weapon as you have next to no capacity. But it's a lot of fun to fool with providing somebody else is buying the ammo.
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Old 09-14-2017, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Cape Cod
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I think they were popular for the shock effect. There is something about hearing a full auto go off that triggers the little voice in your head to shout "get down". I think security teams used them so they could deliver a quick burst at a would be assassin to either put him down or to trigger that voice so he gets down on his own thus giving the team time to get their charge out of harms way.

Years ago I shot a Uzi and a Thompson and they were pretty cool.
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Old 09-14-2017, 03:39 PM
 
Location: Billings, MT
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That "burp gun" was more commonly known as a "Grease Gun", because it looked like one.
It was incredibly simple, easy and cheap to build, and nearly impossible to jam no matter how dirty it got.
It was basically a spray gun. It was not built for accuracy. It had only rudimentary sights, if it had any (it has been a lot of years, I don't know if my memories are correct.).
The accepted mode of operation was to bust the door open or down, and spray the room. For that, it was very effective.
It was also great fun to shoot!
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Old 09-14-2017, 05:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redraven View Post
That "burp gun" was more commonly known as a "Grease Gun", because it looked like one.
It was incredibly simple, easy and cheap to build, and nearly impossible to jam no matter how dirty it got.
It was basically a spray gun. It was not built for accuracy. It had only rudimentary sights, if it had any (it has been a lot of years, I don't know if my memories are correct.).
The accepted mode of operation was to bust the door open or down, and spray the room. For that, it was very effective.
It was also great fun to shoot!
"Grease Gun" - AKA the WW2 era M3 in .45 caliber. Shown in the movie Hacksaw Ridge, and otherwise excellent movie but it had Vince Vaugn picking off japs like he was a sharp shooter with that weapon.
A "burp gun" was sometimes used in reference to the soviet PPSH-41

Last edited by Dd714; 09-14-2017 at 06:35 PM..
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:49 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
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During Vietnam I was in the Marine Embassy Guard Battalion Company C covering most of Southeast Asia. In Saigon our people were issued the Beretta Model 12 submachine gun for close quarters work. It was a highly effective weapon for that kind of environment. The embassy also had at it's disposal an Army unit on the perimeter with the standard infantry weapons.


There were a lot of Thompsons and Burp guns floating around Vietnam back then mostly used by Vietnamese police and security units. Also some US forces had a few bought on the black market. These were the late issue M3A1 and the M1A1. The M3A1 was primitive. Open the dust cover, put your finger in the bolt hole and charge the weapon.
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Texas
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In regards to full auto combat weapons, the Bren Gun was not considered a good weapon because it was too accurate. If you know about how to set up a machine position, you don't set up for the enemy to charge at the machine gun. You put the gun at the flank in that way you get a much denser area to fire into. If you have 2 machine guns, now you can get the enemy in a cross fire, an ideal strategy. When I first heard this I thought the instructor was nutz but if you think about it, a machine gun is a vehicle that puts lead bullets into the air in the hopes that the enemy will run into it. The wider the spray pattern the more infliction's you get. The Bren would just shoot a hole in a tree if the operator wasn't constantly moving the gun. Interesting how some of the weapons worked and how effective they could be. In the Pacific, the shotgun was more valued than a spray and pray gun.
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