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Old 07-31-2018, 11:59 AM
Status: "Just crying wolf" (set 15 days ago)
 
5,299 posts, read 1,332,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6oo9 View Post
One big problem with many popular small handguns for many years had been the bullets are marginally effective. Now 380 ACP bullets produced by manufacturers like Underwood can produce muzzle velocities of 1100-1400 fps for 90 grains -- that's approaching the 9mm. That'd fundamentally change how the small handguns are viewed.

Most small handguns have the blowback designs without the lock breech, and usually can not handle high pressure. Now it seems the bullets are changing all that.

Bottomline, if you carry a 380ACP small handgun, but loaded with high performance ammos, it can be as effective as a Glock 9mm.
I carry a .380 at times when I can't carry the Glock 19. It's small and fits in my pocket. A spare magazine in my left pocket. Is it the best thing to carry? Not really. But it's better than nothing.
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Old 07-31-2018, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
13,411 posts, read 42,760,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperL View Post
Same gun as the Beretta 84 FS and the Browning BDA. I have two of them. One is blue and the other nickel. Incredibly reliable weapon, no doubt, but it's not a full size gun and the sight radius suffers. I'm not saying it's 100% worthless as a defense weapon. It beats a stick any day. But few are going to be able to hit their truck at 25 feet with one. That's a big target vs a man.


If you lend any credence to the FBI studies, they claim that the first 5" of penetration tells the story on what a particular cartridge is going to do in a defensive scenario. The first 5" makes up the major part of a wound channel. If you've seen many of the gel tests on bullets, you'll see what they claim is fact. They'll also tell you there is little to no discernible difference between a 380 and a 22 Magnum. The ammo they used in the test for the 22 Mag was the Hornady Critical Defense 45gr HP. I don't recall the ammo used in the 380 to be honest but the bullet was a HP from the pics in the article. The wound channel was just as large with the 22 mag as with the 380. They claim the velocity was the key factor. FWIW, the 22 mag is not a 22 Long Rifle with a bigger load of powder. It shoots the same bullets as a 223, 22-250, etc and is a true .223 caliber round.

I have a Cheetah (single stack) but have not fired it yet. But a similar pistol in size, a Colt 1903 in .32 ACP, I have shot quite a bit. Can easily hit beer can sized targets at 25 yards, not feet.



Back around 1980, a cousin and I started shooting and casting bullets. We shot A LOT. Rifles, shotgun, handgun. The handguns, we were not versed in "DVC", so we didn't shoot under time pressure, draw from a holster, or any of that good stuff. We just shot slow fire at beer cans, and once we were hitting them regularly, we moved them further away. Like bumblebees that don't know they can't fly, and fly anyway, no one was around to say a big pocket pistol like the 1903 was no good beyond spitting distance. So we shot them on out to 50 yards and more. And got hits.


More serious gats like a Gold Cup, a 6" Python - more serious long range for handguns fun.



I expect to be able to stay on a man-sized target no problemo with the Cheetah, out to say 50 yards. I may need to do some skullduggery in terms of a cast bullet, diameter, seating depth, etc. Have previously posted about my "Buntline" Beretta Minx, .22 Short. Fixed sights. First shot I ever fired, was at a bowling pin, 50 yards, measured witnessed on a guard training range at a plant I worked at previously. Hit it. Can't do it every time, but say 8 out of 10. I would expect the Cheetah to shoot about as well, particularly with the cast bullet ammo I will make up for it.



Like I posted before, we agree that the .380 is on the light side for a defensive round, a 9mm Luger would be better, and a .45 ACP would be more like what you actually want. But I don't see why a guy would have trouble hitting a pickup truck at rock throwing distances with the Cheetah.



Front sight. Press. If I have a secret to getting better accuracy than most with smaller handguns, it would be that I do focus on the front sight, and pay attention to maintaining sight alignment, and just don't let the small motions of not being able to stand *perfectly* still bother me mentally.
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Old 08-02-2018, 10:21 PM
 
4,761 posts, read 8,388,889 times
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A .380 might not expand but a .45 never shrink

There are 2 schools of thought on terminal ballistic. One focuses on penetration while the other focuses on expansion. The thinking behind penetration is if you penetrate deep enough, you’ll bound to hit major organs or arteries and that provide the basis for stopping power. The thinking behind expansion is if your bullet gets wider diameter the probability of hitting major organs or arteries goes up thereby produce the stopping power. The expansion guys like light & fast bullets, while penetration guys prefer slower but heavier bullets as heavier bullets retain its momentum thereby providing penetration.

Which one is right? You be the judge
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Old 08-03-2018, 01:44 AM
 
Location: Richmond
1,415 posts, read 701,871 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HB2HSV View Post
A .380 might not expand but a .45 never shrink

There are 2 schools of thought on terminal ballistic. One focuses on penetration while the other focuses on expansion. The thinking behind penetration is if you penetrate deep enough, you’ll bound to hit major organs or arteries and that provide the basis for stopping power. The thinking behind expansion is if your bullet gets wider diameter the probability of hitting major organs or arteries goes up thereby produce the stopping power. The expansion guys like light & fast bullets, while penetration guys prefer slower but heavier bullets as heavier bullets retain its momentum thereby providing penetration.

Which one is right? You be the judge
That about sums it up.


My primary carry conceal is in the .380 but I love to shoot the .45 ACP.
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Old 08-03-2018, 05:16 AM
 
5,971 posts, read 2,796,168 times
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I like the 9mm

Federal 147 +p hydrashocks will get the job done. I’ll always remember the new Lenox cop yelling on video that he was out of ammo ( he had a 1911 with 25 rounds total I think)

I carry 16+1 and 4 extra mags. 81 total
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Old 08-16-2018, 01:24 PM
 
93 posts, read 18,632 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6oo9 View Post
One big problem with many popular small handguns for many years had been the bullets are marginally effective. Now 380 ACP bullets produced by manufacturers like Underwood can produce muzzle velocities of 1100-1400 fps for 90 grains -- that's approaching the 9mm. That'd fundamentally change how the small handguns are viewed.

Most small handguns have the blowback designs without the lock breech, and usually can not handle high pressure. Now it seems the bullets are changing all that.

Bottomline, if you carry a 380ACP small handgun, but loaded with high performance ammos, it can be as effective as a Glock 9mm.
I dont believe the 90 grs at 1400 fps claim, from a 2.5" blowback 380? not a chance. When you load such a gun to 1000 fps, you get more flash out of the ejection port than you get out of the muzzle! I dont think that you can put enough powder in the case, even in a locked breech 380, to get that level of performance, from that short a barrel, without blowing up the gun.If the gun is going to be more than 6" long, you can have a $350, locked breech, 15 oz Kahr CM9 9mm, or a Sig Single action P938, so why settle for a mere blowback 380? That makes no sense.

I've never had any trouble printing 2" groups at 25 ft with any 380 that had decent sights. . Focus on the sights, control the trigger,

that's all. In 1970, I had a smith put a set of 1911 sights on a Browning 380. It was then much more accurate than it had been with just the sight groove.
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Old 08-16-2018, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Southeast, where else?
3,914 posts, read 4,012,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperL View Post
Biggest issue with the 380 is there is no real full size, quality gun made chambered in a 380. I commonly see people at ranges with a small 380 that can't hit a human size target at 15 feet. It's due to the short barrel yields no sight radius. It makes for a point and shoot type of weapon. Add that few have decent triggers which adds to the horrible accuracy. Kinda hard to shoot accurately with a 10lb trigger. I've seen a few that where the husband is trying to teach the wife how to shoot and she is so weak handed that she can't get the trigger to break. It's more a gun problem rather than the 380 being so worthless. Some of the newer barrier blind bullets like those from Lehigh Defense are a dandy option for any caliber size. They do add to the performance of the cartridge. But if you can't hit anything with it, it's nothing but a firecracker with a trigger.


If we go back to say the 1970's, the 9mm pretty much came to you as a FMJ bullet. There were not many options for loaded ammo. There were options if you handloaded. Bullet performance , well, there wasn't any. Can't tell you how many 9mm HP bullets I pulled from coyotes that the bullet did absolutely nothing. I could have wiped it off and reloaded it. The attraction to the 9mm was ammo was dirt cheap, little recoil, and you could carry a lot of it in the gun. You pretty much needed all of that ammo since the cartridge was so weak kneed. Bullet technology now makes the a 9mm a credible round as a defense round but it's still on the weak end of the acceptable range. Even with high performance ammo, you either have a very high expanding bullet but little penetration or you have lots of penetration but little expansion. The 9mm just isn't enough of a round for you to have both. It'll never be a 45acp or even a 44 special. For some folks, it beats carrying a switch but there are far too many out there trying to make the 9mm something it isn't. It's more of a make do cartridge rather than an ideal cartridge for self defense. The 380, even with high performance ammo, it's still a weak cartridge to defend yourself with. Yeah, it has been improved significantly but only up to the old 9mm which wasn't much of a gun to begin with.



Many "full-size" .380's have been around for quite some time. Browning had a beauty and it held 13+1 I memory serves me. The stainless is a very well finished gun. The latest incarnation of a "full-size" .380 would be the S&W 380 (E-Z as some call it) M&P 2.0 product. With or without the ambi safety. It is without a doubt the easiest racking semi-auto I have ever held. 3.2 or 3.5 inch barrel so it's more like a G-19 in size....nevertheless, holds 8+1, comes with 2 mags, each mag has a load assist similar to a ruger Mark II/III/IV mag. EASY To load, EASY to rack. For many, this may become very appealing. Frankly, I was surprised they didn't have this in a more double-stack (Albeit slim) for 13-15 rounds....no matter, for many this will be appealing.


As far as the newer "exotic" ammo from the likes of Underwood, starfire, and half a dozen others that rely on bullet shape for cavitation upon impact....might work...what it lacks in penetration (I said that) it makes up somewhat for in the wound cavity. YouTube it....intriguing.....easy follow up shots says this ain't your ol' .380.


I, like you, own many firearms and tend to lean between 9mm, 40SW and .45 ACP (I do like my shield .45 ACP, a real beaut with 7+1 on tap) but, I also own a myriad of .380's....some which will shock those that actually have shot them.....


G42, probably one of the best feeling guns in your hand....6+1 probably the only drawback. That and the easy ability to hit the slide release which prevents it from locking open on the last round.....I load it now with 90-100Gr FMJ's predicated on brand to achieve some decent penetration but, sometimes I mix the mag up a bit with some HP....Hornady and such....


I'm confident that it will stop a threat. I'm confident that if I take 2-3 double-taps it will be plenty for the majority of issues....I carry this now because of the concealment factor more than anything...nothing else...it's enough gun with enough grip, with enough ammo to get me to a longer one if need be.….it's a good gun.


Here's some more.....the Taurus TCP...yep....my 2010 stainless model has worked flawlessly since I bought it, keep it in a tight grip and NO stovepipes, FTF, FTE and the thing DISSAPPEARS in a pocket or ISP holster...do NOT underestimate this gun....it's better than the Ruger LCP (first version) has a better grip relief with pinky extension, locks to the rear, locked breach design, easy recoil, consistent trigger pull (probably 5-6 lbs) and is good to 15 yards....good enough...smallest gun I ever carry and when I need to be completely discreet, it'll do.....


It is BETTER than the Ruger LCP I.....the LCP II addressed everything it DIDN'T have and the trigger is still rough, the grip lacking...but, improved overall, now it too locks to the rear after the last round is fired...welcome to the party....


And I love Ruger (SR9 is incredibly well-balanced)….


No matter, .380 is much better than the .22, .25, .32 (For the most part) and is now acceptable for most.....bigger is probably better but, many simply can't handle it or, can't be caught wearing a brick (Think 1911)….most people have corporate jobs and lifestyles which mandate a discreet manor at all times.....weekends? Maybe not so much, during the week? You bet.....so, ergo the insatiable demand for .380's.....the pocket rockets are respectable, not dragon slayers but, I dare anyone to get in front of one and call it "not enough gun".....they work....very small, very easy to clean, and for the most part, quite reliable...


I like to see that .32 H&R Magnum in 432 again.....sigh.....6 rounds, revolver, and not so darn painful to shoot as my SW 442.....


I've practiced a LOT with my .380's and outside of the cost (twice the cost of 9 it seems...) it's very pleasant to shoot, easy to keep double-taps inside the 9/10 ring at 10 yards....that'll work...
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Old 08-17-2018, 11:25 AM
 
93 posts, read 18,632 times
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the 380 is not made for anything but killing people. Defensive shooting is a good thing, but kidding yourself about what the feeble little round can accomplish is a mistake. Expansion of the bullet adds no power. It MAY make a better use of what power you have, IF a non expanding bullet over-penetrates and wastes some of its power on the far side of the man. But that is not normally the case with 380 ammo. It barely has enough power to penetrate deeply enough. As I said, the 1400 fps claim for a blow back 380, with a 90 gr jhp, is a pure out lie. 1000 fps is about all you'll get, A PPK 380 is bigger and heavier than many of today's 9mms. So why settle for 180 ft lbs of poweer when you can have 370 ft lbs, via the 6" long, 15 oz, $350 Kahr CM9 9mm and Corbon's 100 gr, 1350 fps+ (from that 3" barrel) The 9mm will almost certainly expand and penetrate enough, the 380 will almost certainly do one or the other, but not both. What happens in jello is not what happens in flesh and blood.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
7,838 posts, read 7,825,496 times
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According to this study, there is not a lot of difference between .380 & .45 (and all calibers in between) in real world effectiveness - statistically:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nycYxb-zNwc
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
7,838 posts, read 7,825,496 times
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I'm not saying I agree with it either, but I don't feel unsafe with my LCP in the front pocket.
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