Did bullet technological advancements change how we see small pistols using 380ACP? (pistol, rifle)
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One big problem with many popular small handguns for many years had been the bullets are marginally effective. Now 380 ACP bullets produced by manufacturers like Underwood can produce muzzle velocities of 1100-1400 fps for 90 grains -- that's approaching the 9mm. That'd fundamentally change how the small handguns are viewed.
Most small handguns have the blowback designs without the lock breech, and usually can not handle high pressure. Now it seems the bullets are changing all that.
Bottomline, if you carry a 380ACP small handgun, but loaded with high performance ammos, it can be as effective as a Glock 9mm.
Biggest issue with the 380 is there is no real full size, quality gun made chambered in a 380. I commonly see people at ranges with a small 380 that can't hit a human size target at 15 feet. It's due to the short barrel yields no sight radius. It makes for a point and shoot type of weapon. Add that few have decent triggers which adds to the horrible accuracy. Kinda hard to shoot accurately with a 10lb trigger. I've seen a few that where the husband is trying to teach the wife how to shoot and she is so weak handed that she can't get the trigger to break. It's more a gun problem rather than the 380 being so worthless. Some of the newer barrier blind bullets like those from Lehigh Defense are a dandy option for any caliber size. They do add to the performance of the cartridge. But if you can't hit anything with it, it's nothing but a firecracker with a trigger.
If we go back to say the 1970's, the 9mm pretty much came to you as a FMJ bullet. There were not many options for loaded ammo. There were options if you handloaded. Bullet performance , well, there wasn't any. Can't tell you how many 9mm HP bullets I pulled from coyotes that the bullet did absolutely nothing. I could have wiped it off and reloaded it. The attraction to the 9mm was ammo was dirt cheap, little recoil, and you could carry a lot of it in the gun. You pretty much needed all of that ammo since the cartridge was so weak kneed. Bullet technology now makes the a 9mm a credible round as a defense round but it's still on the weak end of the acceptable range. Even with high performance ammo, you either have a very high expanding bullet but little penetration or you have lots of penetration but little expansion. The 9mm just isn't enough of a round for you to have both. It'll never be a 45acp or even a 44 special. For some folks, it beats carrying a switch but there are far too many out there trying to make the 9mm something it isn't. It's more of a make do cartridge rather than an ideal cartridge for self defense. The 380, even with high performance ammo, it's still a weak cartridge to defend yourself with. Yeah, it has been improved significantly but only up to the old 9mm which wasn't much of a gun to begin with.
Biggest issue with the 380 is there is no real full size, quality gun made chambered in a 380. I commonly see people at ranges with a small 380 that can't hit a human size target at 15 feet. It's due to the short barrel yields no sight radius. It makes for a point and shoot type of weapon. Add that few have decent triggers which adds to the horrible accuracy. Kinda hard to shoot accurately with a 10lb trigger. I've seen a few that where the husband is trying to teach the wife how to shoot and she is so weak handed that she can't get the trigger to break. It's more a gun problem rather than the 380 being so worthless. Some of the newer barrier blind bullets like those from Lehigh Defense are a dandy option for any caliber size. They do add to the performance of the cartridge. But if you can't hit anything with it, it's nothing but a firecracker with a trigger.
If we go back to say the 1970's, the 9mm pretty much came to you as a FMJ bullet. There were not many options for loaded ammo. There were options if you handloaded. Bullet performance , well, there wasn't any. Can't tell you how many 9mm HP bullets I pulled from coyotes that the bullet did absolutely nothing. I could have wiped it off and reloaded it. The attraction to the 9mm was ammo was dirt cheap, little recoil, and you could carry a lot of it in the gun. You pretty much needed all of that ammo since the cartridge was so weak kneed. Bullet technology now makes the a 9mm a credible round as a defense round but it's still on the weak end of the acceptable range. Even with high performance ammo, you either have a very high expanding bullet but little penetration or you have lots of penetration but little expansion. The 9mm just isn't enough of a round for you to have both. It'll never be a 45acp or even a 44 special. For some folks, it beats carrying a switch but there are far too many out there trying to make the 9mm something it isn't. It's more of a make do cartridge rather than an ideal cartridge for self defense. The 380, even with high performance ammo, it's still a weak cartridge to defend yourself with. Yeah, it has been improved significantly but only up to the old 9mm which wasn't much of a gun to begin with.
What about the Beretta Cheetah, and/or the Sig 220?
I agree that it's a rather weak round even with improved ammo of late.
There are a lot of 9mm Luger pistols that are as small as most 380's, but, this class of pistol comes with it's own issues - very stiff recoil springs, and the need to keep a very firm grip to get good cycling.
Yes, there are still some "service" sized .380's in circulation, and being produced like the Beretta 85FS, 84FS, Sig P230/232, and even Russian Commercial Makarovs floating around in .380. Nothing wrong with the caliber for personal protection.
Yes, there are still some "service" sized .380's in circulation, and being produced like the Beretta 85FS, 84FS, Sig P230/232, and even Russian Commercial Makarovs floating around in .380. Nothing wrong with the caliber for personal protection.
IIRC, I saw some Hornady Critical Defense ammo for sale in 9X18 for the "regular" Makarov. A half-step up from the 380, I guess. Makarovs in 9X18 tend to go for surprisingly cheap prices, sort of a poor boy's .380. The 9X18 round is less popular than .380, but is in the same power class, probably no practical difference.
Biggest issue with the 380 is there is no real full size, quality gun made chambered in a 380. I commonly see people at ranges with a small 380 that can't hit a human size target at 15 feet. It's due to the short barrel yields no sight radius. It makes for a point and shoot type of weapon. Add that few have decent triggers which adds to the horrible accuracy. Kinda hard to shoot accurately with a 10lb trigger. I've seen a few that where the husband is trying to teach the wife how to shoot and she is so weak handed that she can't get the trigger to break. It's more a gun problem rather than the 380 being so worthless. Some of the newer barrier blind bullets like those from Lehigh Defense are a dandy option for any caliber size. They do add to the performance of the cartridge. But if you can't hit anything with it, it's nothing but a firecracker with a trigger.
If we go back to say the 1970's, the 9mm pretty much came to you as a FMJ bullet. There were not many options for loaded ammo. There were options if you handloaded. Bullet performance , well, there wasn't any. Can't tell you how many 9mm HP bullets I pulled from coyotes that the bullet did absolutely nothing. I could have wiped it off and reloaded it. The attraction to the 9mm was ammo was dirt cheap, little recoil, and you could carry a lot of it in the gun. You pretty much needed all of that ammo since the cartridge was so weak kneed. Bullet technology now makes the a 9mm a credible round as a defense round but it's still on the weak end of the acceptable range. Even with high performance ammo, you either have a very high expanding bullet but little penetration or you have lots of penetration but little expansion. The 9mm just isn't enough of a round for you to have both. It'll never be a 45acp or even a 44 special. For some folks, it beats carrying a switch but there are far too many out there trying to make the 9mm something it isn't. It's more of a make do cartridge rather than an ideal cartridge for self defense. The 380, even with high performance ammo, it's still a weak cartridge to defend yourself with. Yeah, it has been improved significantly but only up to the old 9mm which wasn't much of a gun to begin with.
I love it. A caliber war in the making. Drag the 9mm in as well.
Same gun as the Beretta 84 FS and the Browning BDA. I have two of them. One is blue and the other nickel. Incredibly reliable weapon, no doubt, but it's not a full size gun and the sight radius suffers. I'm not saying it's 100% worthless as a defense weapon. It beats a stick any day. But few are going to be able to hit their truck at 25 feet with one. That's a big target vs a man.
If you lend any credence to the FBI studies, they claim that the first 5" of penetration tells the story on what a particular cartridge is going to do in a defensive scenario. The first 5" makes up the major part of a wound channel. If you've seen many of the gel tests on bullets, you'll see what they claim is fact. They'll also tell you there is little to no discernible difference between a 380 and a 22 Magnum. The ammo they used in the test for the 22 Mag was the Hornady Critical Defense 45gr HP. I don't recall the ammo used in the 380 to be honest but the bullet was a HP from the pics in the article. The wound channel was just as large with the 22 mag as with the 380. They claim the velocity was the key factor. FWIW, the 22 mag is not a 22 Long Rifle with a bigger load of powder. It shoots the same bullets as a 223, 22-250, etc and is a true .223 caliber round.
Last edited by volosong; 07-31-2018 at 07:56 AM..
Reason: fixed open quote hypertag
I havent shot one yet but the new S&W Shield ez in .380 seems to be getting some positive notes from those who have handled it. Not a micro gun so accuracy is reasonable, and by design it is very easy to operate the slide, etc.
I will stay out of any caliber discussion but would think there are those out there who perhaps cant physically handle a larger gun or caliber and may need something like this.
"Advancements" in bullet technology are over rated. Designs may have changed and expansion improved in HP ammunition but the physical factors working on a bullet are still the same. Factors such as heavy winter clothing, bod of an attacker and other such things that impact bullet performance. Heavy clothing is a biggy. Leather jackets and heavy coats with layered clothing underneath plug up the meplats of HP bullets effectively turning a HP into ball. During Summer months this is less of a concern but bad guys do wear leather vests and such during the Summer.
Given these factors I don't even use HP ammo. I use a TC. But, I also use a 45 so these bullets have considerable frontal mass and are 225 gr.
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