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First, re-read the post by Sage of Sagle, above. Then, absolutely, do go to the Frugal's Forums link to FerFAL's writings, above by SilverOne. Spectacular and insightful stuff. Never truer words were written by FerFAL or Sage of Sagle.
As a custom gunsmith I'm often drawn into discussions by folks with the best intentions about self-defence. Few understand what Sage has briefly noted above. The realities of the situation you might find yourself in, in a darkened home (the thuggos cut the phone lines and then tripped the conveniently outside-mounted main power circuit breakers) are unpleasant. Your heart is trying to get free of your chest cavity, you're feeling a bit faint, your already high blood pressure is tripping the Star-Trek-like alarm Klaxon horn in your head, and yet thuggo's in his element.
Don't concentrate so much on the type of weapon as on your strategy. Think and train for a number of scenarios, concentrating on the worst-case ones. Let your family in on the possibiites so they are not scared out of their ability to react effectively. That's very hard at the best of times. Chest-pounding bloviations by us gun nuts aside, there's nothing like the real thing. Even in training, and Sage will no doubt back me up here, one's heart gets to "poundin' purty-good"!
To your choice of weapons, though, rksinco: Given the physical limitations of length and weight, I still sorta like my 18" 870 pump with a SWAT magazine extension tube. One thing you CAN count on; if "Thuggo" hears that famous action cycling sound (See: any Terminator movie when Ah-Nald pumps the weapon..) it will potentially send your friendly local intruder scampering away. Not what he bargooned for!
Otherwise a nice suppressed MP3 or 5 in 9mm or .40 S&W would be wonderful, but not too available to us mortals. Sage's points about stopping an armed intruder, esp. a drugged one with a double-edged fighting knife, moves my thinking over towards the good old .45ACP. In a full-sized frame they are quite controllable unlike, say, a .357 short-bbl'd magnum revolver is. Nor do they blind you with the muzzle flash. They do, however, absolutely stop "thuggo" if you hit him in the center of mass. Two hits is even better!
PS Sage; some-one in our training class suggested that if you absolutely had the time, to pop on some ear protectors. Interesting idea, no? A set of Peltor Tac-7s that actually increase your ability to hear, and it also prevents the stun effect of a firearms discharge, including that from your own weapon. Which, BTW, is considerable! Otherwise you won't be hearing for a week afterwards!
The combined effects of the acoustic impact plus muzzle flash will, in fact, disable an interloper without you actually hitting him. If he's just around the corner, touch off a round in the hallway in front of him. Ouchy!
Anyhow, my personal weapon choices for close-in defence/offence? The aforementioned Rem 870 with SWAT tube and ultra-bright LED lite attached. "00" buck (or even better is the "SSG" we used to get in Canada. A bit bigger lead ball size I think). I also have some nylon slugs, no longer available, but I used to use them to dissuade polar bears, so they will work on humans. There's probably some such similar thing out there. Heck, you can even get Mace-dispensing rounds. And for your wife, there are low-recoil 12ga loads (2.5" I recall).
20ga rounds cost the same or more than 12ga, there's not the variety of ammo, and a 1 oz load in a 20ga kicks exactly as hard (or harder) as a 1 oz load in a 12ga. Laws of physics and all, given that they both have the same muzzle velocity. But 20ga guns are often lighter, ergo more recoil!
For a handgun, for a man or recoil-proofed woman, the .45ACP will stop your unwelcome guest with a double-tap to the chesty area. 9mm not so much but you can always triple-tap him. Unless you wish to then argue about his intentions in court when his lawyer recommends suing you. Well, you know the answer here.... la-dee-dah.... So, a full-size .45ACP with a light on the bottom, and one of those laser red dot projectors. (Check out the Taurus 1911 clone! Reaonably priced, fully equipped and with mounting rails for lights, etc.) Your intruder will have fun trying to rub that little red dot off his shirt!
Well, have fun. Think it all through, and practice practice practice. Then go and practice. Plan for the Worst, and Hope for the Best!
Peace!
Last edited by rifleman; 12-01-2008 at 11:43 AM..
Reason: typos, clarity
PS Sage; some-one in our training class suggested that if you absolutely had the time, to pop on some ear protectors. Interesting idea, no? A set of Peltor Tac-7s that actually increase your ability to hear, and it also prevents the stun effect of a firearms discharge, including that from your own weapon. Which, BTW, is considerable! Otherwise you won't be hearing for a week afterwards!
Interesting idea.
In the "old days" we jest went in...and if you were in a firefight, your ears rang afterward...
We had tried plugs, and over-the-head headsets, but you lost ambient sound. We generally didn't like anything that "shut down" your hearing with any sudden high-db sound, as you'd lose other sounds. For example, you'd hear a flashbang and a split second later your team member would shout something and you'd miss it. I also tried some amplification sets that actually OVER-amplified things, from the sound of my equipment to our own footsteps. So MY experience is not helpful in a home defense situation since you're working solo and not as a team member.
If you went with some sort of headset, then yes, it would protect your hearing. But if you alert out of a sleep to an intruder, putting on a headset requires both hands leaving your weapon for a moment, something I don't tend to like (but then I'm paranoid I suppose).
If you're with kids in a safe zone, have them cover their ears while you're with them (armed), and any time you're away from them they should not cover their ears in case you're calling for them.
So should you put on ear protection that amplifies ambient sound? I guess I would say ANYTHING you train to do quickly and without having to think, you will naturally execute in a high stress situation. So IF you want to wear hear protection, train with it every time or don't use it.
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. - P. J. O'Rourke
Of course, I can always retrieve the keys and the empty whiskey bottle from my errant teenaged son. Try getting your money "back" from the gov'mint! No whay... but they'll go vote-trolling by giving it to, say, GM. Why not back to me? Aren't my family hurting enough?
If you are interested in a handgun for home defense and are not very experienced with firearms then you should seek a revolver. it's easier to ensure that it's unloaded/loaded, you can open the cylinder and be instantly safe, you can open the cylinder and put a simple padlock around the topstrap to secure it. You can get a good, used .357 Magnum and shoot lighter recoiling .38 Specials in it for practice. It would be moderately OK for wild animals and good for home defense. Clearing your house alone is not recomended no matter how highly you are trained, but if you have NO training, don't do it.
Ideally you should be able to secure your family away from the danger...don't go prowling around the house looking for a burglar if you don't have to. Call the police and wait, and use the gun to protect yourself if THEY come looking for YOU.
Shotgun- for a home defense gun that you won't shoot a lot you can get a decent 12 gauge pump gun around here for <$200- used. Have the barrel bobbed to 20 or 18.5 inches. I prefer rifle sights on a shotgun but a bead will suffice for "bed to doorway" distances.
In addition to the aforementioned hearing protection you should keep a good, fully charged, very bright flashlight next to, or attached to, the gun. In addition to perhaps blinding and dazzling your opponent, target identification is very important, both from a legal standpoint and from a personal comfort standpoint.
If you do have to shoot someone inside your house remember "know your target and what lies beyond it". In a house you can put a pellet, slug, or bullet through a bunch of interior walls if you miss or if they penetrate their target. You don't want to to kill the serial rapist breaking down your door but also kill your cat sleeping at the foot of your kids bed, either.
If you can go to a range and rent a pistol or two, or find someone locally to help you out, you can try to shoot a few different guns and see which one, if any, strike you as comfortable.
Several of my female friends carry/have their own handgun. I often travel by myself and the subject of should I carry a gun has been discussed many times. I can stand still and hit a target but I know myself. I know I would hesitate to actually fire at a person. I've taken self defense classes and highly recommend them to other women. At a class in fire arms I took, the instructor said if you aren't sure you would pull the trigger - you don't need a gun. I think this is very important to think about.
At a class in fire arms I took, the instructor said if you aren't sure you would pull the trigger - you don't need a gun. I think this is very important to think about.
I really don't think anyone knows until it happens. However, I think that is VERY good advice.
I am a CCP holder...and they are pretty much saying you better be ready to use it and to shoot to kill
While I do concur that if you wield a gun, you MUST be mentally prepared to have to take a human life should it come to that...I would like to offer a slightly different thought process.
SHOOT TO STOP. Your goal is NOT to take a life first and foremost. Your goal is to stop a threat. Yes, that generally means shooting center mass which will kill someone. However, for some people that I have trained, they struggle with the idea of "shoot to kill" as if they must be bloodthirsty.
You shoot to stop a threat. If the by-product is that the intruder loses their life, that isn't your problem, as your actions did not precipitate their entry into your dwelling.
Should you wind up in court after a self-defense shooting, start saying "I shot to kill" and you're in trouble. It's a VERY critical semantical difference, but even one that we cops had to understand...that you're not "executing" the intruder...you're "defending" yourself with all means necessary. Same action, different description. But it's an important difference.
If I was called to a house on a homeowner who killed an intruder, I WANT the person to tell me "I shot the intruder because I had an overwhelming immediate fear of being killed by this intruder in my home coming toward me and the reason I shot him 9 times is that he was still standing and I was trained to shoot until I have stopped someone coming at me".
I DID NOT want to hear "I emptied 6 rounds into the thug, reloaded, and put in 3 more for good measure to make sure he was dead".
Should you wind up in court after a self-defense shooting, start saying "I shot to kill" and you're in trouble. It's a VERY critical semantical difference, but even one that we cops had to understand...that you're not "executing" the intruder...you're "defending" yourself with all means necessary. Same action, different description. But it's an important difference.
If I was called to a house on a homeowner who killed an intruder, I WANT the person to tell me "I shot the intruder because I had an overwhelming immediate fear of being killed by this intruder in my home coming toward me and the reason I shot him 9 times is that he was still standing and I was trained to shoot until I have stopped someone coming at me".
I DID NOT want to hear "I emptied 6 rounds into the thug, reloaded, and put in 3 more for good measure to make sure he was dead".
Just food for thought...
Best advice yet, Sage! Or is it Sarge? Exactly, precisely as taught by all competent and capable instructors in home defense. This guy (and a few others here) knows his stuff, people! Listen up! There are also a couple of books about the legal use of Lethal Force (Massad Ayoob is one author I think, yes? Google Google!). He also covers Concealed Carry rights while out on the street, BTW.
If you buy a weapon or two for home defence, PLEASE take the time for two critical activities. (Well, THREE actually. No. 3's kinda redundant, but very important!)
1. Once you have selected your new tool(s), practice with them at the range, including subsequent disassembly, cleaning and re-assembly. Clearing jams, re-loading under stress, what happens if/when your weapon runs out of ammo, for example (slide stays open? Learn through practice!) Familiarity through practice and all...
2. Set up and practice scenarios in your home, including all possible participants (The exception is house guests who just might be somewhat alarmed if told "Get up, Aunt Tilly! We have a fun family activity I'm so sure you'll enjoy!!")
--------------------------- First, for playing out these scenarios, UNLOAD and then CHECK your weapon. Then hand it to each participant and have them, while YOU watch, do a weapon safety check, even though they saw you do it. They MUST have this part down pat. Every time. No foolin'! "Gun Unloaded?" you inquire. "Yes. Absolutely!" they answer. If little 6 year old Johnny's answers or actions make you nervous, have someone take full personal responsibility for him. And no "gun handling practice" for him either. I'd tend to say no firearms for anyone less than, what, 10 - 12 years old. And only if they demo full mature responsibility. In general they're not going to be in the fire-fight anyhow.
---------------------------
Then set up and practice a few scenarios. Starting with everyone in their bedroom. (an alternate scenario is of course, that everyone is doing their home crafts, or watching their personal wide-screen HD TVs or eating at the dinner table when the doorbell rings. Which is, BTW, a common invader's approach. When you go to answer, they crash in! Their intent is to overwhelm you physically and mentally. How fun! "Be Prepared" through scenario-modelling!) .
PS: It's worthwhile to place yourself in an intruder's perspective and position. Step outside and imagine how you would best overwhelm the inhabitants. Do this in the daylight and also at night. Can you easily see in the house, especially at night when the house lights are on, to determine what / where the family's up to or positioned? Etc. etc. Very worthwhile and enlightening activity!
Remember the film PATTON, where George C. Scott yelled, out in the desert, as he took control of the situation: "Rommel you bastard! I read your book!" No wiser words, etc.
The previously developed codeword is yelled, sent over the intercom or however. (I personally always wanted one of those old WWII submarine Klaxon alarm horns, but my wife... well you know the rest...) Max of two or three different codewords (you don't want them having to look for the 27-entry decipher book under the pile of toys now do you?).
The code-word(s) all basically mean: "DANGEROUS SITUATION! NO KIDDING HERE! NOT A DRILL! DO EXACTLY AS WE'VE PRACTICED. NOW! " Stay put, get under the bed, into a lockable closet, room or whatever. They might also mean "come or go to mommy and daddy's lockable bedroom (right next door) ASAP!". Or whatever procedure you develop. (minor PS: if you have a totally loyal family fido, no matter how tenacious, like a Yorkie Terrier, DO NOT let them out into the house. The intruder(s) may well have their own shotgun. Just hearing Yorkie the Wonder Dog upstairs may, however, slow them down! Keep Yorkie safe! He may well have provided you with an alarm! Good doggie!).
Different codewords you ask? Well, yes: the first one should mean "Danger, intruder"; the second might mean "Fire in the house", a third might mean "I've seen someone suspicious out in the barn, outside through a window, or out in our car trying to boost it". But that's all. Define 'em, have each person practice yelling them out from various locations, along with their exact definitions and the correct responses. Reserve the first one for the most dangerous: Intruder in the House or Breaking In! Get Safe"!
Oh yeah, BTW, a last code-word would be, specifically, "ALL SAFE-ALL OK!" Said until everyone confirms! This one prevents your wife, who's been hiding in the laundry room with the "9mm" from triple-perforating (see below) YOU as you come on out. This one's kinda critical, don't you think?
(I know, I'm triple-paranoid....) Anyhow, back to our story.....
Practice these scenarios until everyone is fully up on each likely possibility. And knows the codeword(s). I know, there's a large number of possibilities, but there are also some sensible basic responses. KEEP YOUR HEADS THROUGH IT ALL!
Once everyone is together or en-route to safety, then go from there with the 911 call on your cell phone that you keep by your bed or person but DO give the dispatcher your address as cell phones don't do that automatically!. Be brief: Home invasion ongoing. Address. All safe, but armed; intruder will be verbally warned. Lastly, number of innocents on board, and likely location. Do not engage in subsequent "chit-chat" with dispatcher. That's why you must talk clearly and slowly enough first time that he/she hears it all. Then put down the phone but leave it on so they will also hear and record your warning to "Mutto" (see below).
Take up a defensive position. As correctly noted above, do not go on a house find-and-fight expedition! Unless you have body armor, a Kevlar™ helmet, goggles, hearing protection, backup behind and beside you, and on and on. Plus lots of experience. Just stay put.
If the intruder makes it to your bedroom doorway, which is hopefully lockable, warn them loudly and clearly, with all your family and the PD dispatcher as witnesses, that (First and foremost) you've called 911 on your cell and the PD is on the way, pronto. And, (Second) if they come through the door you WILL blow their f%^king heads or "useless testicular appendages" off. Use appropriate "tougho" language; you can apologize to the kids later. God forgives the protective!
If the meth-soaked thuggo does think you're bluffing and bops the door open, let fly with a few well aimed and well illuminated rounds as he steps into his future, appropriately "going to the light" that you've thoughtfully provided. You might think to yell "Stop!" just before you squeeze off that first round.
Have absolutely no sympathy for him. He's already provided ample proof, by being in your house, of his absolute love and respect for you and your family. He's scared the literal you-know-what out of all of you. If he's still moaning, well, I have my biases, and don't take my biased advice. La-tee-dah....
3. Most Important: conduct this practice every other night or so for a week or so, until everyone thinks dad or mom are really paranoid, or that he / she actually really cares about the family! Tell them what the likely alternatives might be, if your uber-worldly teen would rather listen to "The Frozen Minds" on their iPods, or watch that ultra-smug Simon Cowell (Oooohhhooo!) on "American Idol". Now THAT'S entertainment, eh?
Then practice a quarterly quick reminder / refresher, complete with gun handling, reloading, what to do if it jams, etc.
Do this, "religiously", and you'll be able to tell your grand kids about how ol' dad or mom saved the whole family in one terrifying event, and that the thuggo Manny is now looking up at the soles of your feet.
Plus, it will give your family a very enhanced sense of self-confidence rather than being abjectly terrorized by even the thughts of these vicious, violent invaders. Ask them, after a week of practice, how they feel now regarding their personal safety when they're at home. Their now-confident and respectful eyes will tell you!
Then, when they've enjoyed that, you can confidently go on with the more complex issues of personal safety outside of the home. The thoughtful, practiced use of a baseball bat, for example. Be sure to note to the investigating officer, in some jurisdictions: You always carry that bat because your son is in Little League (only if it's true, BTW...) or that you like to go down to the park to play with your family. Always have the ball and glove along to prove this point! A firearm isn't absolutely necessary nor always available nor, unfortunately, socially acceptable in all situations. Like "open-carry" in church or down at WalMart (another thread, BTW). And then there's always good "Bear-strength, 15% pepper spray", in a nice directstream "big can" version... Correct use of which is another thread or post.
The best defence lays between your ears. Weapons (guns, bats, chemical sprays, a pitch-fork, etc.) are just potential and efficient tools if you're well-practiced. If not, you're fooling yourself, as many gun owners do. You know the ones, who have an AR-15 fully outfitted, but never practiced with in the house, sitting behind the bedroom door.
Oh BTW, did I mention to PRACTICE? That would also include a few rehearsals of what to say, truthfully and un-stressed, to the too-late-arriving PD officers. Get consensus from the family while rehearsing these correct answers. Take careful note of the absolutely incorrect things to say or not say, as Sage noted above.
If in doubt, consult with your family lawyer or just ask here! Common sense, really. Almost as dangerous as a home invader is a lefty lawyer who pleads that little Hey-Zoos is the real victim here, that he was just trying to visit his aging gramma but forgot his keys. He thought she was in trouble or unable to answer the phone ("Help! I've fallen and can't get up!"). And then you, Mr. & Mrs. Smith, brutally, and without warning, shot and crippled him as he innocently broke into her locked bedroom!" (And let him live to sue you, BTW...).
Cut to courtroom scene, the perp's lawyer, with the wheelchair-bound perp quietly moaning and squirming in his chair; his lawyer speaks up: "Your honor! Just look at poor crippled pain-killer-addicted teen-aged and righteously innocent Hey-Zoos here! Did the Jury know that he is the sole provider for his extended, poor ghetto family of 8? I mean, really, Your Honor and Members of the Sympathetic Minority Jury! Then look again at Mr. and Mrs. Smith here, with their Beemer(s), Volvo(s), various expensive firearms and metallicized Amex cards! Did you know that they live up in McMansion Heights, by the way? Who yah gonna believe here? Who, exactly, should pay out here? We're only asking for $5M for little Hey-Zoos's obvious permanent suffering, and that of his now-shattered family!"
Who indeed! You get the very real picture, right? Remember that "triple-tap" strategy? All in the course of "saving your family", remember! Have no mercy, etc. right? Say it: Right?
Sage et al, thx for putting up with my long-winded blog-itudes!
Anyhow, for free advice, we're always awake, apparently!
Peace, folks! But make sure the tools are loaded up but safely locked away when not in use!
Last edited by rifleman; 12-05-2008 at 12:45 PM..
Reason: typos, clarity
with a light on the bottom, and one of those laser red dot projectors. (Check out the Taurus 1911 clone! Reaonably priced, fully equipped and with mounting rails for lights, etc.) Your intruder will have fun trying to rub that little red dot off his shirt!
Well, have fun. Think it all through, and practice practice practice. Then go and practice. Plan for the Worst, and Hope for the Best!
Peace!
Just got my self a crimson trace laser for the XD40. WOW !!! I would recommend it to anyone!. easily installs around the grip. clears the paddle holster nicely and the pressure switch turns it on instantly when the weapon is drawn.Very bright light pencil thin even during the day. kinda pricey at 269.99 but worth it in my opinion...............
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ultimate control...
Again with the "Sage" advice!
