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Old 06-07-2009, 01:57 PM
 
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Hi,
I'm new to reloading. I have been given some old surplus 4831 powder.One type of bullet I bought is the Barnes TSX Boattail 168 grain. The data I have is dated 1963 for 150-165 grain and 180-200 grain, but nothing for the 168 grain. Only the 180-200 gr bullets call for Hodgdon 4831 on the old data sheet. Since the date is dated 1963 I figure the surplus 4831 is good for the larger grain bullets at the amounts on the data sheet. My question is two fold, is my assumption correct on the 4831 and where can I find data for the 168 grain bullets, loading with the surplus 4831? (I'm assuming the loads for the surplus 4831 and the current H4831 are not the same, but I don't know for sure)

I did find this data: 308_6_165

But like I said, I'm not sure if the surplus is the same as the current 4831.
I'm loading for a 300 weatherby, using a lee loader.
Great forum by the way!


Just wanted to add this:

I read somewhere that some of the surplus 4831 was dupont, at least that was the thought of the writer. My data card says to use dupont IMR 4350 for 150-165, Hodgdon 4831 for 180-200. Why the different powder, I don't know. On the site I posted, they say 165-168 grain bullets use 69.9-85.5 grains of H4831. I'll try my 168 bullets at 70 and see how they shoot. What is an indication that I'll need to start moving up on the powder? I assume I should be able to look at the pattern and use that?

Another question I have is how critical is the bullet depth? My lee loader says to use a factory loaded round as an example, which is 3.542 inches. The specs I got off the internet say over all length is 3.562 inches. I went by the factory length, but my rounds are not exact. they vary between 3.532 and 3.560. The Noslers do have a point which is harder and longer than the other bullets, which may be why they are on the longer side of the range I posted here.

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Old 06-07-2009, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Way on the outskirts of LA LA land.
3,043 posts, read 7,557,011 times
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Hodgdon first made a powder named 4831. Dupont (now IMR) came out with its own 4831 powder in 1973, according to information in my Speer Manual. Unless you know the specific manufacturer of the powder, you need to be very cautious when using it, if you decide to use it at all. I would be very leery of using any powder that I did not know 100% about who manufactured it. Even in this day of limited powder availability and soaring prices, how much is your life, or your prized rifle worth?

The Barnes website only lists two powders for the 168 gr. TSX BT bullet in .300 Weatherby Magnum. You didn't say it, but you are loading for the .300 Weatherby Magnum, aren't you? One of the powders listed for that bullet is the IMR 4350, though I would not use load data for it when using 4831.

My Speer manual (#13) shows data for both IMR 4831 and Hodgdon H4831SC using 168 gr. BT bullets, though not specifically the Barnes TSX. For the IMR, the recommended minimum is 74.0 grains, and the maximum is 78.0 grains. For the Hodgdon's it shows 78.0 grains minimum, and 82.0 grains maximum. For both powders they recommend using a Magnum primer. The book also states that, in general, Hodgdon H4831SC powder can be used with the IMR load data, but not the other way around. In other words, DO NOT use the Hodgdon's H4831SC powder load data unless you are 100% certain that you are using the Hodgdon's H4831SC powder.

My Lyman manual (48th edition) says to use 76.0 grains minimum and 80.0 grains maximum of Hodgdon's H4831SC for a 165 grain Jacketed Ballistic Tip bullet, the only bullet listed that was close to the TSX. Again, a Magnum primer is recommended. No listing was given for IMR 4831.

My final reference is the Hodgdon's 2009 Annual Reloading Manual. Like the Lyman manual, it does not list the 168 grain TSX, but it does list the 165 grain Nosler Boattail. For IMR 4831, it shows a mimimum of 73.0 grains, up to a maximum of 78.0 grains. For Hodgdon's H4831, it shows a minimum of 75.0 grains, up to a maximum of 80.2 grains. Again, Magnum primers were used.

Case overall length is shown as 3.560 in all three of my manuals for the bullets mentioned above.

Last edited by jdavid93225; 06-08-2009 at 12:10 AM..
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Old 06-08-2009, 01:52 AM
 
528 posts, read 926,513 times
Reputation: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdavid93225 View Post
The Barnes website only lists two powders for the 168 gr. TSX BT bullet in .300 Weatherby Magnum. You didn't say it, but you are loading for the .300 Weatherby Magnum, aren't you? One of the powders listed for that bullet is the IMR 4350, though I would not use load data for it when using 4831.

My Speer manual (#13) shows data for both IMR 4831 and Hodgdon H4831SC using 168 gr. BT bullets, though not specifically the Barnes TSX. For the IMR, the recommended minimum is 74.0 grains, and the maximum is 78.0 grains. For the Hodgdon's it shows 78.0 grains minimum, and 82.0 grains maximum. For both powders they recommend using a Magnum primer. The book also states that, in general, Hodgdon H4831SC powder can be used with the IMR load data, but not the other way around. In other words, DO NOT use the Hodgdon's H4831SC powder load data unless you are 100% certain that you are using the Hodgdon's H4831SC powder.

My Lyman manual (48th edition) says to use 76.0 grains minimum and 80.0 grains maximum of Hodgdon's H4831SC for a 165 grain Jacketed Ballistic Tip bullet, the only bullet listed that was close to the TSX. Again, a Magnum primer is recommended. No listing was given for IMR 4831.

My final reference is the Hodgdon's 2009 Annual Reloading Manual. Like the Lyman manual, it does not list the 168 grain TSX, but it does list the 165 grain Nosler Boattail. For IMR 4831, it shows a mimimum of 73.0 grains, up to a maximum of 78.0 grains. For Hodgdon's H4831, it shows a minimum of 75.0 grains, up to a maximum of 80.2 grains. Again, Magnum primers were used.

Case overall length is shown as 3.560 in all three of my manuals for the bullets mentioned above.
Thanks for responding, yes I am loading for a 300 weatherby mag.

I went out today and bought the Reloaders Guide by R.A. Steindler. It's a 3rd edition from 83. None of the book stores around here seem to carry these types of books (extreamly liberal) so I went to a used book store and found it, I also snagged the ABC's of reloading. The charts in the reloaders guide seem to load on the higher end, they don't give a range, but "a" number and the note in the begining said to start at 5% less and increase to this number.

I also went to the range Sun night and shot at a target where I found all my shots were low by about 6 inches. When I first bought this wby I took it to the range and the first rounds I fired were pmc 165 rounds which were in the middle of the target but a wide pattern. I then fired Weatherby brand 180s and they were grouped good, but about 6 inches high. I set the scope to the weatherbys, thinking I'd just buy some more. But when I couldn't find any other weatherbys, I decided to reload. My question is why are the weatherby brand (new) bullets so much higher at 100 yards than the pmc or the ones I reloaded? I had to adjust my scope back to where it was in the beginning because I was hitting below the target. I fired two different 180s and one type of 168's and they were all with in a 3 inch circle. What is different about the Weatherby brand bullets?

Thanks again for all the data, I know you must have had to take time to look some of it up. I fired the 168 tsx at 70 and they seemed ok, but I am not too sure what I should be looking for. At this time, if it goes bang and ends up on the target, it seems good. I also shoot cowboy, 45 colt and some of the light rounds I can tell by the sound..... but I'm still learning here, I never paid much attention to the differences other than the sound. I did load some more tonight, I went up to 79 gr on both the 180 bullets and to 72 on the 168, only because of the chart I posted a link on in the first post. The book I have says to use 80.5 for the 180 bullets and 83.5 on 165 bullets. I notice as the bullets get lighter, the powder gets a little heavier.

I guess my biggest worry was setting the depth of the nos bxt bullets, I heard pressures could get too high if they are into far, but sounds like you still just measure the total length, just like the others.

As for the length, should I be going by the spec in the book, or by a new factory bullet, like the lee loader paper said? I assume it can make a difference due to the difference in pressure.

Sounds like my cases are ok, I did find 2 different measurements for the over all length. For some reason, I can't find this in the reloading book I got.

I am using CCI 250 primers for large rifle mag.

I noticed, in the manual I have, it refers to 4831 as 4831 and not H or IMR. I am assuming it is refuring to what I have.
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Way on the outskirts of LA LA land.
3,043 posts, read 7,557,011 times
Reputation: 1830
Quote:
Originally Posted by msta999 View Post
Thanks for responding, yes I am loading for a 300 weatherby mag.

I went out today and bought the Reloaders Guide by R.A. Steindler. It's a 3rd edition from 83. None of the book stores around here seem to carry these types of books (extreamly liberal) so I went to a used book store and found it, I also snagged the ABC's of reloading. The charts in the reloaders guide seem to load on the higher end, they don't give a range, but "a" number and the note in the begining said to start at 5% less and increase to this number.

I also went to the range Sun night and shot at a target where I found all my shots were low by about 6 inches. When I first bought this wby I took it to the range and the first rounds I fired were pmc 165 rounds which were in the middle of the target but a wide pattern. I then fired Weatherby brand 180s and they were grouped good, but about 6 inches high. I set the scope to the weatherbys, thinking I'd just buy some more. But when I couldn't find any other weatherbys, I decided to reload. My question is why are the weatherby brand (new) bullets so much higher at 100 yards than the pmc or the ones I reloaded? I had to adjust my scope back to where it was in the beginning because I was hitting below the target. I fired two different 180s and one type of 168's and they were all with in a 3 inch circle. What is different about the Weatherby brand bullets?

Thanks again for all the data, I know you must have had to take time to look some of it up. I fired the 168 tsx at 70 and they seemed ok, but I am not too sure what I should be looking for. At this time, if it goes bang and ends up on the target, it seems good. I also shoot cowboy, 45 colt and some of the light rounds I can tell by the sound..... but I'm still learning here, I never paid much attention to the differences other than the sound. I did load some more tonight, I went up to 79 gr on both the 180 bullets and to 72 on the 168, only because of the chart I posted a link on in the first post. The book I have says to use 80.5 for the 180 bullets and 83.5 on 165 bullets. I notice as the bullets get lighter, the powder gets a little heavier.

I guess my biggest worry was setting the depth of the nos bxt bullets, I heard pressures could get too high if they are into far, but sounds like you still just measure the total length, just like the others.

As for the length, should I be going by the spec in the book, or by a new factory bullet, like the lee loader paper said? I assume it can make a difference due to the difference in pressure.

Sounds like my cases are ok, I did find 2 different measurements for the over all length. For some reason, I can't find this in the reloading book I got.

I am using CCI 250 primers for large rifle mag.

I noticed, in the manual I have, it refers to 4831 as 4831 and not H or IMR. I am assuming it is refuring to what I have.
Your older manual can be a valuable reference, since you are using some older components (powder), and it may be because of the manual's age that it doesn't distinguish the manufacturer of your powder. Even so, I would suggest purchasing at least two reloading manuals of recent publication. Though they may not list your current powder, they can give you the information you are seeking regarding the specifications for your cartridge, as well as load data for modern components.

It is also best to always refer to at least two reputable sources when reloading (I prefer printed manuals), and staying within the guidelines published in both of them. The reason for this is to avoid any errors that may be the result of a misprint (It's not likely that both manuals would contain misprints on the same data). Three or four sources of data is better still, though it may be somewhat overkill. My reason for exercising such caution is that I value my firearms and want to ensure that I am not creating any sort of unsafe load that could damage them.

As to your questions about the Weatherby brand ammo you tried, there could be multiple reasons for it shooting a lot higher than the other ammo you used. Part of it could be bullet design. A bullet that is more aerodynamic will lose velocity at a slower rate, and will therefore drop less over a given distance than one that is less aerodynamic. It could also have been loaded to provide a higher initial velocity. These are generally the main reasons for such results. Another possibility is that the Weatherby bullets don't wobble as much as the others in flight, causing them to maintain their velocity for a longer distance.

Anything that causes the bullet to lose velocity will cause it to drop more over a given distance. That is why the highest velocity loads generally give a flatter trajectory than the lower velocity loads. This information is explained further in most reloading manuals, which is another reason I highly recommend having at least two of them. Also, not every manual lists every application you might want to try. In your area, you might end up having to order them over the internet. I actually have all three of the manuals that I referenced in my prior post.
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Old 06-09-2009, 10:11 PM
 
43,177 posts, read 47,049,205 times
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First if you have some surplus H 4831 make sure it is still good. The H4831 hodgon is close but I always fond it a liitle slower myself when i used surplus in the late 60's. I got that powder from my father whose club use to order it and then break it up between members.So any H4831 manual shopuld be fine as all manauls are a litler conservative as was hogdon when blending their lots of H4831 new manufautured.
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:34 PM
 
528 posts, read 926,513 times
Reputation: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdavid93225 View Post
Your older manual can be a valuable reference, since you are using some older components (powder), and it may be because of the manual's age that it doesn't distinguish the manufacturer of your powder. Even so, I would suggest purchasing at least two reloading manuals of recent publication. Though they may not list your current powder, they can give you the information you are seeking regarding the specifications for your cartridge, as well as load data for modern components.

It is also best to always refer to at least two reputable sources when reloading (I prefer printed manuals), and staying within the guidelines published in both of them. The reason for this is to avoid any errors that may be the result of a misprint (It's not likely that both manuals would contain misprints on the same data). Three or four sources of data is better still, though it may be somewhat overkill. My reason for exercising such caution is that I value my firearms and want to ensure that I am not creating any sort of unsafe load that could damage them.

As to your questions about the Weatherby brand ammo you tried, there could be multiple reasons for it shooting a lot higher than the other ammo you used. Part of it could be bullet design. A bullet that is more aerodynamic will lose velocity at a slower rate, and will therefore drop less over a given distance than one that is less aerodynamic. It could also have been loaded to provide a higher initial velocity. These are generally the main reasons for such results. Another possibility is that the Weatherby bullets don't wobble as much as the others in flight, causing them to maintain their velocity for a longer distance.

Anything that causes the bullet to lose velocity will cause it to drop more over a given distance. That is why the highest velocity loads generally give a flatter trajectory than the lower velocity loads. This information is explained further in most reloading manuals, which is another reason I highly recommend having at least two of them. Also, not every manual lists every application you might want to try. In your area, you might end up having to order them over the internet. I actually have all three of the manuals that I referenced in my prior post.
Thanks, I did buy the speers reloading manual, 10th edition on ebay and will have it soon, so I'll have two and I also have The ABC's of Reloading 4th edition. I also found some weatherby brand 150 gr bullets in Florida and have them coming to compare to what I have or had. I started loading 168 barnes, 180 NOR and 180 Hornady. I started at the bottom of the scale and am working up. My jumps may be a little big, but everything I read seems to say you get better results at the higher end. So I went from 70 to 72 to 74 and will go up on grain at a time from now on. Both the 168 and 180 have the same start wieght, but the 180 stops sooner than the 168. As I understand it, you keep going up on the powder (not over max load), until you get the closest group, then when the group starts to get wider, you stop and go with the loads that had the tightest group.
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:38 PM
 
528 posts, read 926,513 times
Reputation: 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
First if you have some surplus H 4831 make sure it is still good. The H4831 hodgon is close but I always fond it a liitle slower myself when i used surplus in the late 60's. I got that powder from my father whose club use to order it and then break it up between members.So any H4831 manual shopuld be fine as all manauls are a litler conservative as was hogdon when blending their lots of H4831 new manufautured.
I was told, if the powder had a fowl smell it was bad and if it had color specs in it, it was bad.
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