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So for everyone that wants to blame the naysayers that are against light rail...Well you are blaming the wrong group of people. If you want to blame someone start with your local political leaders that are at City Hall in downtown Norfolk. They are the group of people that has prevented light rail from moving any further forward then just the starter line.
Really? No.
How about we blame the citizens of VA Beach that couldn't see past their own nose and put a 10 year ban on light rail for starters.
How about we blame the citizens of VA Beach that couldn't see past their own nose and put a 10 year ban on light rail for starters.
Tell me what the citizens of Va Bch have to do with the cost over runs of a train in Norfolk?......It is the cost over runs that has halted this project and nothing else
xGrendelx in a fantasy world that may mean something but in real life ridership numbers will mean very little at this point for the Tide. The problem that Hampton Roads will face in the future is trying to convince the Federal government that expansion is possible for X number of dollars.
As I stated in my last post, Norfolk has screwed the whole Hampton Roads area over the cost on the starter line. Here is why. If you take the last 25 light rail projects that have been constructed since 1997 only three have exceeded their contract budget. Two had cost over runs while one expanded the scope of the whole project. The budget increases ranged from 6 to 17 percent and all were frown upon by both the Federal government and their local States for the cost over runs.
Now let’s look at Norfolk. Anyone that has lived in Hampton Roads area longer than five minutes knows this area has always been considered by the State to be the red headed step child area for budget/tax money compared to Northern Va. We see that every year when the State budget is completed. No surprises there. So this area does not get the State money in truly needs but is tossed a bone every few years.
Ok so Norfolk was tossed a bone by the Feds and the State to build this light rail starter line and everyone was excited. The Federal government money was to account for about half of the construction cost while the State and Norfolk were to contribute about 25% each. Now that sounded great until everyone found out that the true cost of building the starter line was going to be close to 50% over the budgeted amount, an unheard of cost over ride figure. And for Norfolk to stay just in the 50% over budget figure they had to cut many projects on the line they had in their original plans including one pedestrian safety feature that still has to be installed by 2014, at a cost of unknown millions of dollars.
So the bottom line is it does not matter if you are for or against light rail in Hampton Roads as our voices will not be heard. It all comes down to money. This area will be competing against every other city across the USA for limited Federal money for future projects including future light rail projects. How do you think it’s going to look when our local political representatives start asking for Federal money for future light rail projects after the blunder Norfolk just did….
There is an old saying that goes "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" and that may sound silly but this is how political moves are made. The Feds may offer more money years from now to expand light rail say into Va Bch but they are going to require the state of Va to put up more money for the project, in turn the State is going to require Va Bch to put up more of their local tax money for the project. Now who knows how the economy will be in 5-10 years but I can’t see how the city of Va Bch can spend millions of their tax payer’s money on a “wanted” project when it will have way to many “needed” projects by that time to worry about first thanks to todays poor ecomony and budget cuts. So again light rail may of worked in this area but that is an answer to a question we will not know for a very long time...
So for everyone that wants to blame the naysayers that are against light rail...Well you are blaming the wrong group of people. If you want to blame someone start with your local political leaders that are at City Hall in downtown Norfolk. They are the group of people that has prevented light rail from moving any further forward then just the starter line.
This was a good post. Honestly. But I don't get why cost overruns will prevent YOU from riding. Seems like a bogus reason. When roads cost too much do you not drive on them?
At this point, it doesn't help to pout about the Tide costing too much (I believe I read somewhere that the Tide still came out cheaper than any comparable starter line anyway). There's nothing you can do about it. But by you not riding it, you're helping the Tide become an even bigger failure, or joke, or waste, or whatever you want to call it. Why don't you say, "Well, it cost too much and the people at HRT and the City messed up in the eyes of the Feds, but it's here now so I might as well use it." Doesn't that sound better than holding a grudge over what you deem as the failure of a process you have nothing to do with?
And I don't want to blame anyone for anything. I'm fine with the way things came out. My view is that cities go over-budget and have stumbled beginnings on most ambitious or progressive projects they take on. That ain't new. Look at San Francisco and the new subway line they're trying to build. Along with the rebuilding of all of South Beach, including the 1000+ foot Transbay Terminal for California's high speed rail. Or bus rapid transit on Geary and Van Ness Blvds. Or the Better Streets project. And you think the Tide is controversial?? And I know what you're thinking, so don't even write it. "Norfolk is not San Francisco." You're right, but all we wanted was a train and now we got it. Why not use it? If you're reason is seriously because it made the Feds angry or because you dislike the local politicians, that's just bitter for bitterness sake.
I have never told anyone not to ride light rail. In fact I hope
that the numbers are far greater than anyone expected. My
Debate from day one has been that Norfolk should not of attempted this project on it's own and should of waited a few more years to get the backing from other cities. And before you say it. Yes that could of been acomplished with simple changes in the local government players which have now taken place. Look at the mayor of Va Bch. He wants light rail also but knows that any federal or state funding would be a waste of this time to ask for right now.
Plus I have no proof but have heard of it being talked about several times in the past that va Bch has several plans for the start of light rail and many of those plans do not include the city of Norfolk or connecting at the city line if the Feds will allow funding. So what ever happens it should make for some great debates over the next couple of years
I always wondered how something can come in over budget when the original numbers were fake to begin with.. can we truly say it was over budget?
But anyway, I believe it will do okay. Ridership numbers will not be off the charts, but the light rail will definitely be a good addition to the city of Norfolk over the long run. Especially for TOD's, ball games, Xmas parade, and special events in the summer time. When people in other cities see the convenience of the train, they'll want it extended. People in this area have a hard time looking out into the future. Its all about what can you do for them now.
Norfolk should not of attempted this project on it's own and should of waited a few more years to get the backing from other cities. And before you say it. Yes that could of been acomplished with simple changes in the local government players which have now taken place.
How long and why should other areas have to wait due to the people of no? Nobody can predict the future and knew old lady Meyera would be out of office, besides, when things were being planned she was still in.
You can't expect everything to happen with the snap of your fingers, which is why waiting is such a serious problem.
It's like the fools that want more oil drilling in the US. They completely lack intelligence in seeing that it will make no difference in pricing.
Waiting and waiting and waiting only hurts our future generations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rita Mordio
'Cept me, 'cause I actually wanted the lightrail to extend into my city.
There are certainly others like you... unfortunately it's the naysayers that usually scream loudest. It's another reason why citizens in every town must stand together and strongly support things like mass transit.
How long and why should other areas have to wait due to the people of no? Nobody can predict the future and knew old lady Meyera would be out of office, besides, when things were being planned she was still in.
You can't expect everything to happen with the snap of your fingers, which is why waiting is such a serious problem.
It's like the fools that want more oil drilling in the US. They completely lack intelligence in seeing that it will make no difference in pricing.
Waiting and waiting and waiting only hurts our future generations.
There are certainly others like you... unfortunately it's the naysayers that usually scream loudest. It's another reason why citizens in every town must stand together and strongly support things like mass transit.
Well I guess many people can predict the future, look at how many people stated Norfolk would screw up the light rail project, and they did. And by them doing so has prolonged any addition light rail projects for this area...
So you say waiting would of hurt future generations? (which is BS because how can you miss something you didnt have?) but by taking on a project that one city can’t handle and screwing it up did hurt future generations
Oranges/apples call it whatever you want and spin it however you want but bottom line is you have seen the last of light rail in Hampton Roads for at least a decade if not longer
EDIT............ Sorry I just can’t pass this post up about the future generation part....See Coconut1 I guess all you care about is Norfolk and that stupid train, and you have never stopped and took a look at the whole picture. Look at how many post have been made on this board with people complaining that the 7 cities just can’t work together to get anything done and that is what is holding this area back. And people can list dozens and dozens of examples of that happening.
Light rail was one project that every local city did show some interest in and could of very well been the first major project of its kind in the history of Hampton Roads where several if not all of the cities would of worked together to build something special.
But as usual Norfolk wanting to prove a point went out on its own (as they normally do) and tried to do light rail without the other cities and they screwed it up (as they normally do)..So congrats you have a silly train that you can ride from nowhere to nowhere. Enjoy it….. but just think if Norfolk would of waited a few more years and the other cities jumped on board what you could of had.
Not only would you have a light rail system running across Hampton Roads but you also would of had the local cities working on a project together which could of brought the cities together again and again on more future projects which is what most people want to seein Hampton Roads to begin with.
So when its all said and done all you get is a train that runs for 7 miles and another example to go with the others on why Hampton Roads will never be more then it is today....So good luck on that future generation theory
No because it needs to be in an area where using a POV is a pain in the butt and the light rail is far more convenient and cost efficient than parking your car at point A and then having to travel to point B which is a good distance away (since we don't want to walk anywhere these days except for exercise purposes...oxymoron). In the western cities that I have seen (yes I know not east..but still think it is worth at least 2 cents), a tram is DRIVEN to taxi people up and down areas that ease traffic and allow more pedistrian traffic, like at the airports. The light rails that operate at ground level with traffic and people have a high probability of hitting cars and pedestrians causing more financial damage to the light rail system with a result of increasing operating costs. Operating a tram in the VA Beach area during the height of tourism to get people to and from parking areas to the beach, yes. I could be off here because I have only been to that beach a few times and tried to stay away during peak seasons. But I think you get the idea that I am shooting for. Like Disney...convenient to park and then get to destination.
So NO, NO, NO, NO. Another example of waste of money. If it was available to various parts of Hampton roads, I still don't think I would use it, it would have to be so long and costly that I think it would only get under my skin more to know how much it cost and how much maintenance would cost.
Well I guess many people can predict the future, look at how many people stated Norfolk would screw up the light rail project, and they did. And by them doing so has prolonged any addition light rail projects for this area...
So you say waiting would of hurt future generations? (which is BS because how can you miss something you didnt have?) but by taking on a project that one city can’t handle and screwing it up did hurt future generations
Oranges/apples call it whatever you want and spin it however you want but bottom line is you have seen the last of light rail in Hampton Roads for at least a decade if not longer
EDIT............ Sorry I just can’t pass this post up about the future generation part....See Coconut1 I guess all you care about is Norfolk and that stupid train, and you have never stopped and took a look at the whole picture. Look at how many post have been made on this board with people complaining that the 7 cities just can’t work together to get anything done and that is what is holding this area back. And people can list dozens and dozens of examples of that happening.
Light rail was one project that every local city did show some interest in and could of very well been the first major project of its kind in the history of Hampton Roads where several if not all of the cities would of worked together to build something special.
But as usual Norfolk wanting to prove a point went out on its own (as they normally do) and tried to do light rail without the other cities and they screwed it up (as they normally do)..So congrats you have a silly train that you can ride from nowhere to nowhere. Enjoy it….. but just think if Norfolk would of waited a few more years and the other cities jumped on board what you could of had.
Not only would you have a light rail system running across Hampton Roads but you also would of had the local cities working on a project together which could of brought the cities together again and again on more future projects which is what most people want to seein Hampton Roads to begin with.
So when its all said and done all you get is a train that runs for 7 miles and another example to go with the others on why Hampton Roads will never be more then it is today....So good luck on that future generation theory
The point is that if you don't help build for future generations you hamper their ability to compete in the global market. The power of the world is no longer held in just the US and a couple other countries. China is growing at an enormous rate as is Brazil and other countries.
We must keep up with them. THAT is why this is all so important. Of course you can't miss what you don't have, but seeing jobs, jobs and more jobs shipped overseas WILL make you miss what you no longer have.
Did every city show interest before or after the 10 YEAR (YEAR!!!) BAN VA Beach put on the project?!??? Don't you get it? You don't just take a month and say "Oh, light rail, yeah, let's break ground on that next month" it takes YEARS to plan. It takes YEARS to obtain the money for the project. Allowing a backwards city passing 10 year ban on transit to dictate the rest of the area must suffer is wrong. Every single day we wait for any type of transit it becomes more and more expensive.
I'm not staying in this hellhole of an area much longer. This won't be my problem, this will be your problem. It will be your problem that you continue to rally against expansion of the Tide because you have some sort of strange vendetta against Norfolk. I suggest you stop your crusade against them and get on board with those looking to expand the Tide into VA Beach.
If you continue like you are currently you will be your own demise.
Good luck to you.
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