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Light rail tracks are different then the tracks that are in place now... The tracks that are in place now the sections are bolted together using fishplates.... Light rail track sections are welded together, which offer a smoother ride plus are capable of running higher speeds
I don't even understand why we are discussing this; if I can't afford a Ferrari why should I even bother to test drive one? The same goes for the City of VA Beach, we can't even afford this...
Who said we can't afford it? Nobody knows how it will be paid for yet. It may be federal and state dollars... you don't improve the future by doing nothing. You improve the future by making SMART investments that put you in a place to succeed. Productive cities with good jobs have (for the most part) good public transportation, young people (the next generation who keep moving away from HR for work) want good public transportation.
I guess this is where I have an issue with a lot of folks that are against ANY kind of spending. There are good investments and bad investments. Taking out a loan to get a computer science degree from a state college is a good investment, you will see a long term gain and be able to pay off those loans pretty quickly. Taking out a loan to get a 19th century English literature degree from NYU is probably a bad investment. You will be $100k in debt, lucky if you make $30k/yr, and spend the next 20 years of your life making minimum payments on your loans.
The same holds true for governments, good infrastructure is typically not a bad investment in the long term. We are looking at tolls on our roads, $4+ gas, highway repairs that are backlogged, daily accidents where people die and hours are lost to traffic. Have you ever stopped to think about how much it costs to drive and how those resources could be used better in other places?? Typical car payment = $300/month, insurance = $75/month, gas = $ 150/month, maintenance = $500/yr, registration = $70/yr, inspection = $15/yr, not to mention the taxes we pay to build, police, and maintain all of the roads.
Having good public transportation is beneficial in attracting businesses, beneficial for tourism (imagine if all of the tourists staying at the oceanfront rode the train to various points of interest instead of clogging up the highways, filling up the parking lots, and braking in the tunnels), and beneficial for residents. Imagine all of the young enlisted guys/girls taking the train to the base every morning instead of tailgaiting, speeding, and weaving in/out of traffic in their modified imports and V8 mustangs. There is an accident at tidewater drive almost every day, it is absurd.
I don't see this as a bad investment in HR's future. Oil prices are too volitile, traffic is getting too bad, roads are in disrepair, there are accidents every day where people die, it is good to have some more options for getting around. I agree, we need to look at the cost/benefit equation in detail to determine what is a reasonable price for the benefits we will get, but this needs to be explored not dismissed. There definitely needs to be accountability, but this attitude that we can't spend on anything is not a good long term plan. We need to spend smarter, that is the problem.
Alright, I've had about all I could take, lol. Lets address a few key points.
Why a new referendum?
While it is true that this is an advisory referendum it is a bit more important than that. The federal government will not provide funding so long as there is a no vote on the books. While Va. Beach can technically go ahead with light rail whether the citizens vote yes or not financially another no vote will kill the project.
Why november?
This is just about as disingenuous an argument as I have ever seen. The very same people that screamed up and down that we should have a referendum on light rail now say they don't want one. Or rather, they do want one, but only on their terms. The cost estimates for light rail have been out for months, $254 million to Town Center and $800 million to the oceanfront. This has been known and studied to death. To say voters will be making a decision with no information is stretching the truth to say the least. The current study being completed right now is a feasibility study that is focused on ridership. The completion of the study was delayed a year so that a years worth of ridership data from the Norfolk segment can be incorporated into the final report. This was a prudent decision and one I agree with. Bottom line is democracy is ALWAYS better when you have more people participating, not less. Those so called "low information voters" still have every right to have a say in how this city runs as you do.
We don't have the money?
Agreed. We don't have the money for roads either but damn if we're not trying to pave every inch in sight. I have an Idea, lets just all take our ball and go home. I don't want my tax dollars to pay for roads, I want it all invested in light rail. I don't want my tax dollars to pay for schools, I have no kids so why should I have to? I don't want another dime of my money to go and pay to put sand on the beach. I say let it all wash away and let the boardwalk function as the seawall it was always meant to be. Now that's my list of things I don't want to pay for, what's yours? As you can see, we're not going to get very far if everyone only pays for what they want. Light rail is a transit alternative, that's it. While you may not use it for anything I do and I will and so will a lot of other people.
Vdogg, nice write up but I have to disagree with a number of your points..... First about the referendum, you state its an advisory referendum but then more important then that..... No it's not, and a yes or no vote has zero impact on obtaining federal money...
Second there is not now or would there be any no vote on the books even if it was shot down again at the next vote... it would be no different then the advisory referendum that was voted on back in 1999 when light rail was shot down...Its just an advisory question....there is no legal binding based on the answer to that question
Sure city council members took a bath over that vote so they tried to save face by passing a resolution declaring the city would no longer have any future involvement in light rail for ten years but that expired back in 2009
So yes the mayor wants to have another referendum, well this week he does, he has changed his mind more times then I care to count so who knows what next week brings....But as of right now he wants to have it in Nov? Why.... For the popular vote, we have all said that several times.... So let's talk about this plan.... Let's discuss both, the 254 million dollar plan and the 807 million dollar plan..... Would you like to provide me those plans? Because as far as the city of Virginia Beach planning office is concern, they don't exist.... Those numbers are nothing more then very preliminary estimates that were tossed around last year...
Now as far as the study, yes that is a numbers study but it involves much more then just ridership numbers and this study will play a large part in the final cost of light rail.... Why you ask... Because the study looks at all numbers which includes items like vehicle traffic at crossings...take crossings at locations like Rosemont or Independence... Should those crossings be elevated or not to control vehicle flow, just a few elevated crossings can add tens of millions of dollars to the final cost......also the study will include cost of things like extra bus routes and the number of park and ride lots and the spaces needed at each location.... All of these items can and will greatly impact the total cost of light rail....
So at this point in time before the study is completed next year the only thing we have right now is the ridership numbers for the starter line in Norfolk, now those numbers have been twisted and turned so much no one has a clue.... Yes we have ridership numbers but we don't have the true numbers of paying riders. Norfolk is doing everything in it's power to make the numbers look good, they have given out thousands of free ridership cards for the 2012 year. Heck I had a business for years in downtown Norfolk, but I sold it and retired last year, but I was sent a 2012 GoPass to ride light rail for free, it seems that all business owners and their employees along with college students, hospital staff, city and state employees etc were all sent free passes to ride....That is a smart move in an attempt to increase ridership numbers but how many of those people are not going to ride it when it's no longer free....we can debate that question forever but will not know until the free passes expire....Maybe another reason to push the vote in Nov.....who knows....
Again there are just to many unknowns regarding light rail at this time, because as soon as that first light rail track is laid in Virginia Beach it then becomes a milti-jurisdictional issue...simple things like cost of maintance of both the tracks and trains becomes an issue, things like security...as of now Norfolk PD provide security of the light rail trains, well as soon as two or more cities are involved you now have to have a Police force that has jurisdiction in both cities so that involved forming and financially supporting a light rail Police force.....How about expansion of the tracks either to the base in Norfolk or the base in Va Bch...Will that be a Federal, State and just one city issue or will the cost be absorbed by all cities involved. How about yearly cost...Sure to build the Va Beach starter line may cost 800 million or it may be 1.5 billion but that does not count the tens of millions of dollars it will cost to operate light rail every year....Where does that money come from?......There are hundreds of questions such as these that have been asked at all of these open forums where all of these different sub-committee's meet and talk about light rail and no one at these meeting have had the answers to any of the questions poised to them......
I would like to see light rail go forward but if a referendum is placed on this Nov ballot I think the vote will be very close and could be voted down again which would pretty much kill light rail.. There is a long time until Nov. and people for or against light rail will have allot of time to state their case to the voters that are undecided. People want answers to their questions and neither the Mayor or Council will be able to answer them at this time..... I am afraid there will be many voters like myself voting, people that favor light rail but have no choice but to vote against it due to the lack of info...
Wow, I should check back here more often. Didn't realize you had left a response.
1.) You mention the resolution against pursuing light rail for 10 years. For those people that complain that the tide goes "nowhere", the above resolution is the reason why it does not. This was action taken as a direct result of this "advisory" referendum. Even though the referendum is not binding, as both you and I agree, It is still important as a gauge of public opinion and the city council WILL act on it. The main purpose of a non-binding referendum is political cover and I guarantee you if the vote comes out 60/40 against no politician currently sitting on council will vote for it. Now that said, if the vote is close, say 51/49 against, they may roll the dice and just go for it anyway. The point i'm trying to make however is that this referendum is a bit more important than you claim it to be.
2.) As far as federal funding and referendums are concerned I believe it was Randy Wright, former Norfolk city councilman and the architect of Norfolks light rail system that commented on that. As I cannot find the relevant quote however I will concede that point for now but may return to the issue later if I can remember where I got that info.
"Both. Bridges are proposed over four major roads – Witchduck Road, Independence Boulevard, Rosemont Road, and Lynnhaven Parkway. Other roads would be crossed at grade. But again, these are very preliminary plans."
4.) As far as jurisdiction and security: The last few times I've ridden I've seen uniformed security officers, instead of police, check for tickets. I'm guessing this is a security firm contracted by HRT and I imagine that they will also handle security in Va. Beach once this gets extended. You really have to look no further than the bus system, which is also managed by HRT, to see how the jurisdictional issues will pan out with light rail.
5.) As far as how this will go down in November, I don't know. I plan to vote for it and I do believe it will pass but I also believe it will be much closer than some of the polling that shows 70 for and 30 against. Even if it passes though, this will still be a long time coming as federal money is scarce right now. We will have plenty of time to revisit all of these issues and the referendum will not be the final say on all things light rail.
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Originally Posted by vdogg
r As far as how this will go down in November, I don't know. I plan to vote for it and I do believe it will pass but I also believe it will be much closer than some of the polling that shows 70 for and 30 against. Even if it passes though, this will still be a long time coming as federal money is scarce right now. We will have plenty of time to revisit all of these issues and the referendum will not be the final say on all things light rail.
Good point--voting to do it and figuring out how to pay for it are two different things.
Also, I think this is a step in the right direction but I am disturbed that none of these option actually reach the oceanfront. Instead they stop at the convention center. This really needs to be addressed.
Who said we can't afford it? Nobody knows how it will be paid for yet. It may be federal and state dollars... you don't improve the future by doing nothing. You improve the future by making SMART investments that put you in a place to succeed. Productive cities with good jobs have (for the most part) good public transportation, young people (the next generation who keep moving away from HR for work) want good public transportation.
I guess this is where I have an issue with a lot of folks that are against ANY kind of spending. There are good investments and bad investments. Taking out a loan to get a computer science degree from a state college is a good investment, you will see a long term gain and be able to pay off those loans pretty quickly. Taking out a loan to get a 19th century English literature degree from NYU is probably a bad investment. You will be $100k in debt, lucky if you make $30k/yr, and spend the next 20 years of your life making minimum payments on your loans.
The same holds true for governments, good infrastructure is typically not a bad investment in the long term. We are looking at tolls on our roads, $4+ gas, highway repairs that are backlogged, daily accidents where people die and hours are lost to traffic. Have you ever stopped to think about how much it costs to drive and how those resources could be used better in other places?? Typical car payment = $300/month, insurance = $75/month, gas = $ 150/month, maintenance = $500/yr, registration = $70/yr, inspection = $15/yr, not to mention the taxes we pay to build, police, and maintain all of the roads.
Having good public transportation is beneficial in attracting businesses, beneficial for tourism (imagine if all of the tourists staying at the oceanfront rode the train to various points of interest instead of clogging up the highways, filling up the parking lots, and braking in the tunnels), and beneficial for residents. Imagine all of the young enlisted guys/girls taking the train to the base every morning instead of tailgaiting, speeding, and weaving in/out of traffic in their modified imports and V8 mustangs. There is an accident at tidewater drive almost every day, it is absurd.
I don't see this as a bad investment in HR's future. Oil prices are too volitile, traffic is getting too bad, roads are in disrepair, there are accidents every day where people die, it is good to have some more options for getting around. I agree, we need to look at the cost/benefit equation in detail to determine what is a reasonable price for the benefits we will get, but this needs to be explored not dismissed. There definitely needs to be accountability, but this attitude that we can't spend on anything is not a good long term plan. We need to spend smarter, that is the problem.
This should be interesting to watch. The city voted "No" back in '99 but a lot has changed (including $4 gas and a moderately successful start for the Tide in Norfolk). I know my delegate put out a survey in his district and mailed us the results. There was a question about whether they supported extending light rail to Virginia Beach and residents answered 63% yes to 37% no. Hopefully no flame wars get started here, I know there are strong opinions on both sides, I'm just passing along the news for anyone interested.
I remember seeing the mayor state that unless the funding is provided from Richmond and from the Federal government nothing will be built anyway. You can forget about a line all the way to the Oceanfront. What will happen, if anything, is the $300 million extension to Town Center, and a good old college try at attempting to increase density along that corridor through the construction of one high-rise project after another, some mixed-use, some office space, some residential. They might even build a high-rise shopping mall. But that's about it.
These bleeding hearts that want a line all the way to the Oceanfront are going to be disappointed. No one in their right mind is going to pay a billion dollars to run this thing to the Oceanfront. The line should be elevated; there is too much traffic around the area where the line is constructed not to. But that won't happen; you'll get a surface level line built that has the right of way, traffic stopping every 30 minutes and backups for a few blocks every time the train runs through.
This should be interesting to watch. The city voted "No" back in '99 but a lot has changed (including $4 gas and a moderately successful start for the Tide in Norfolk). I know my delegate put out a survey in his district and mailed us the results. There was a question about whether they supported extending light rail to Virginia Beach and residents answered 63% yes to 37% no. Hopefully no flame wars get started here, I know there are strong opinions on both sides, I'm just passing along the news for anyone interested.
Even if it goes through, another 5 years before construction starts and another 8 years before it is finished.
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