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I never even considered that but it does solve a lot of the concerns that VB residents seem to have about high crime Norfolk/Portsmouth areas getting subsidized rides to their neck of the woods. (I say Portsmouth too because you can take the ferry over and hop on the train pretty easily, I do the reverse to go to High St pretty regularly).
It is a little disappointing, in terms of HR as a whole, to think that it wouldn't connect but you are right, the cities are large and populous by themselves.
The Oceanfront, through Hilltop, past Oceana, past Lynnhaven, and across to Town Center would be really nice. Most tourists visit Town center and Hilltop already according to the data I have seen. Lets get them off the roads so that we can get where we need to go and they can enjoy their leisure time. And for the residents that live on/near that corridor, it would instantly transform VB into an area where you can live/work/shop/play without the direct need for a vehicle (assuming you had a job near the line somewhere).
This is not unique to HR. I don't doubt that it is disappointing but to be totally honest, every city has the same issues. Check out the Atlanta fourms. There are plenty of conversations there about the struggles the city is having in routing their metro into suburbia. You will find the same thing in the LA fourms as well.
Another thing to consider is that in the case of a city like NY, the only rail in the suburbs is Amtrak, or something like Amtrak (the Path in NJ) for example. The subway that runs throughout the boroughs is not the same system that leaves the city and goes outside of the metro area.
The only thing that differentiates metro areas like those aforementioned cities from HR is that in our case, Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, and parts of Suffolk are our suburban areas. You also have the counties that surround HR, which would be considered our exurbs. So the idea that someone from the inner city would bring crime into the suburbs and exurbs is nothing new. Detroit is about the absolute worst, most textbook case, of this ideology. At least HR does not have an all Black inner city followed by all White suburbs and exurbs. We have poor, working class and rich people, of all races, in each of the seven cities, which is a great thing because you do not find that across America.
It might be more feasible, or more realistic, for Norfolk and Portsmouth to work together on The Tide than for Virginia Beach and Chesapeake to work along with Norfolk, for obvious reasons. People in Virginia Beach would like to see The Tide, but they don't really need The Tide. In Virginia Beach, if you don't have a car, its your problem. The same goes for Chesapeake. Norfolk might have some success getting The Tide into South Norfolk though, as it could help to revitalize the area, but Greenbrier, Deep Creek, Hickory, etc. I doubt we'll see anything there soon because people in those areas do not really need public transportation.
This is not unique to HR. I don't doubt that it is disappointing but to be totally honest, every city has the same issues. Check out the Atlanta fourms. There are plenty of conversations there about the struggles the city is having in routing their metro into suburbia. You will find the same thing in the LA fourms as well.
Another thing to consider is that in the case of a city like NY, the only rail in the suburbs is Amtrak, or something like Amtrak (the Path in NJ) for example. The subway that runs throughout the boroughs is not the same system that leaves the city and goes outside of the metro area.
The only thing that differentiates metro areas like those aforementioned cities from HR is that in our case, Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, and parts of Suffolk are our suburban areas. You also have the counties that surround HR, which would be considered our exurbs. So the idea that someone from the inner city would bring crime into the suburbs and exurbs is nothing new. Detroit is about the absolute worst, most textbook case, of this ideology. At least HR does not have an all Black inner city followed by all White suburbs and exurbs. We have poor, working class and rich people, of all races, in each of the seven cities, which is a great thing because you do not find that across America.
It might be more feasible, or more realistic, for Norfolk and Portsmouth to work together on The Tide than for Virginia Beach and Chesapeake to work along with Norfolk, for obvious reasons. People in Virginia Beach would like to see The Tide, but they don't really need The Tide. In Virginia Beach, if you don't have a car, its your problem. The same goes for Chesapeake. Norfolk might have some success getting The Tide into South Norfolk though, as it could help to revitalize the area, but Greenbrier, Deep Creek, Hickory, etc. I doubt we'll see anything there soon because people in those areas do not really need public transportation.
You are right, HR is very egalitarian in general. Not a lot of super rich and not a lot of super poor. And there is a large middle class that stretches across all races/ethnicities that live here. There is disparity, of course, but not nearly as bad as most cities. That is one of my favorite things about the area.
I guess the idea of Amtrak coming to Harbor Park (and the potential for high speed rail down the road) is the only real solid reason I see for connecting to Norfolk. For anything else I could just drive to Downtown Norfolk or drive to the Newtown Rd Tide Station (tides/admirals game, concert, play). It is more that I want the area, or at least the southside, to be more cooperative.
VB, with a little bit of higher density development around the core, can be a great city on its own for sure. I think it is 90% there already. You have the beach, the bay, the base, town center, hilltop, great rec centers, good schools, etc... A lot of "lists" on the internet seem to agree with that assertion because VB is regularly in the top ten places for growing up, raising kids, being active and so forth. We just need a bit of economic diversification.
I am really curious to see how this shakes out over the next few months. People are definitely talking about it a lot, I expect a lot of interesting debate coming up to the November ballot.
You are right, HR is very egalitarian in general. Not a lot of super rich and not a lot of super poor. And there is a large middle class that stretches across all races/ethnicities that live here. There is disparity, of course, but not nearly as bad as most cities. That is one of my favorite things about the area.
I guess the idea of Amtrak coming to Harbor Park (and the potential for high speed rail down the road) is the only real solid reason I see for connecting to Norfolk. For anything else I could just drive to Downtown Norfolk or drive to the Newtown Rd Tide Station (tides/admirals game, concert, play). It is more that I want the area, or at least the southside, to be more cooperative.
VB, with a little bit of higher density development around the core, can be a great city on its own for sure. I think it is 90% there already. You have the beach, the bay, the base, town center, hilltop, great rec centers, good schools, etc... A lot of "lists" on the internet seem to agree with that assertion because VB is regularly in the top ten places for growing up, raising kids, being active and so forth. We just need a bit of economic diversification.
I am really curious to see how this shakes out over the next few months. People are definitely talking about it a lot, I expect a lot of interesting debate coming up to the November ballot.
I guess I am the exception but I can't see the Beach building their own line without connecting to Norfolk. Folks in downtown Norfolk would love to be able to take the Tide to Town Center, Hilltop or the Oceanfront. Look at the Metro in DC as good example of a train that goes in several cities and now they are even building a line to the Dulles corridor.
Last edited by citydweller; 05-30-2012 at 05:25 PM..
Reason: edit
This is not unique to HR. I don't doubt that it is disappointing but to be totally honest, every city has the same issues. Check out the Atlanta fourms. There are plenty of conversations there about the struggles the city is having in routing their metro into suburbia. You will find the same thing in the LA fourms as well.
Another thing to consider is that in the case of a city like NY, the only rail in the suburbs is Amtrak, or something like Amtrak (the Path in NJ) for example. The subway that runs throughout the boroughs is not the same system that leaves the city and goes outside of the metro area.
The only thing that differentiates metro areas like those aforementioned cities from HR is that in our case, Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, and parts of Suffolk are our suburban areas. You also have the counties that surround HR, which would be considered our exurbs. So the idea that someone from the inner city would bring crime into the suburbs and exurbs is nothing new. Detroit is about the absolute worst, most textbook case, of this ideology. At least HR does not have an all Black inner city followed by all White suburbs and exurbs. We have poor, working class and rich people, of all races, in each of the seven cities, which is a great thing because you do not find that across America.
It might be more feasible, or more realistic, for Norfolk and Portsmouth to work together on The Tide than for Virginia Beach and Chesapeake to work along with Norfolk, for obvious reasons. People in Virginia Beach would like to see The Tide, but they don't really need The Tide. In Virginia Beach, if you don't have a car, its your problem. The same goes for Chesapeake. Norfolk might have some success getting The Tide into South Norfolk though, as it could help to revitalize the area, but Greenbrier, Deep Creek, Hickory, etc. I doubt we'll see anything there soon because people in those areas do not really need public transportation.
The PATH services Urban Jersey and does not go into the Suburban , however the current and future LRT network in NJ connects the cities with the Dense suburbs. The Regional Rail connects everything , the Urban areas , Dense Suburban and rural areas of NJ , NY and CT....Amtrak does the Major towns and cities.
I guess I am the exception but I can't see the Beach building their own line without connecting to Norfolk. Folks in downtown Norfolk would love to be able to take the Tide to Town Center, Hilltop or the Oceanfront. Look at the Metro in DC as good example of a train that goes in several cities and now they are even building a line to the Dulles corridor.
It is the politically correct thing to do. One of the contradictions of HR is that it wants the image of working together but in reality each city is left to its own devices and is off doing its own thing, but I don't think that really says anything about HR there are similar metropolitan areas where the same is the rule, not the exception. Norfolk is its own city; if the Beach can't agree with Norfolk and HRT on the fine print they should go ahead with their own system. Ideally, it would connect to Norfolk but progress is progress. Whether or not it connects to Norfolk it would be better to have a system in place than none at all.
The PATH services Urban Jersey and does not go into the Suburban , however the current and future LRT network in NJ connects the cities with the Dense suburbs. The Regional Rail connects everything , the Urban areas , Dense Suburban and rural areas of NJ , NY and CT....Amtrak does the Major towns and cities.
Thanks for clarifying this for me, because it is a bit confusing. There would be nothing wrong with having multiple systems here, and using Amtrak as well. You have multiple options for getting around by rail, which should be the case here especially considering the enormous footprint HR leaves on this part of Virginia. I did ride the PATH though from Newark into NYC. We need that type of system around here. I guess the equivalent will be the Amtrak running from DC to Norfolk. These two areas need to be connected; at this point a better connection from here to Richmond would be progress.
If it passes, how long do you think it would be before this system is built?
Could be a few years. Norfolk did not start building right away. There were surveys, a lot of planning, a lot of studies.
Only advantage to the situation in VB would be that these are being done already. In Norfolk, it was not a matter of it, but when. In VB, it is not as though they do not know what the ins and outs will be, but whether or not citizens support it.
Has there been any polling done about this recently?
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