Another thing that makes VB unique

[UHgrad]

Originally Posted by goofy328

I think their point is that there is a very good chance that a lot of this was planned. Given the fact that Virginia had more independent cites than any other state one has to consider the fact that metropolitan Virgina was on the planning stages hundreds of years ago. These studies should not impress anyone, given the Commonwealths prophetic actions.

Perhaps I'm a bit dense but I don't get your point here... could you elaborate? And whose point are you referring to? The study or lammius?

When I look at Orlando, Portland, Minneapolis, and Providence (the other metros in the top 5) there is no common factor that seems to stand out between the group. And what do independent cities have to do with economic integration? Why can't independent cities or free markets decide to segregate themselves without central planning doing it for them?

[goofy328]

Originally Posted by UHgrad

Perhaps I'm a bit dense but I don't get your point here... could you elaborate? And whose point are you referring to? The study or lammius?

When I look at Orlando, Portland, Minneapolis, and Providence (the other metros in the top 5) there is no common factor that seems to stand out between the group. And what do independent cities have to do with economic integration? Why can't independent cities or free markets decide to segregate themselves without central planning doing it for them?

What would be the point of an independent city? So you're suggesting that the city of independent, without economic planning? Baltimore and St. Louis are Independent. They're both urban cities, in urban counties. In fact the counties are urban in part because the cities are Independent. New York City is another example of planning. Sure Queens and the Bronx were farmland, but once they were annexed they were urbanized in a matter of decades.

Independent Cites are not regular cities, so the stereotypical flight/suburbia arguments do not apply as they would with other cities.

[UHgrad]

Originally Posted by goofy328

What would be the point of an independent city? So you're suggesting that the city of independent, without economic planning? Baltimore and St. Louis are Independent. They're both urban cities, in urban counties. In fact the counties are urban in part because the cities are Independent. New York City is another example of planning. Sure Queens and the Bronx were farmland, but once they were annexed they were urbanized in a matter of decades.

Independent Cites are not regular cities, so the stereotypical flight/suburbia arguments do not apply as they would with other cities.

The point of an independent city is to do its own thing I would imagine. I still don't get your point as it relates to this study. HR, as a metro, is the 5th least economically segregated of all metros over 1million. I am genuinely trying to understand your point here but I don't get it. I am not even sure what you are asking me in regards to planning I was just trying to make sense of this previous statement.

Originally Posted by goofy328

I think their point is that there is a very good chance that a lot of this was planned. Given the fact that Virginia had more independent cites than any other state one has to consider the fact that metropolitan Virgina was on the planning stages hundreds of years ago. These studies should not impress anyone, given the Commonwealths prophetic actions.

I don't know who you mean by "their point", I don't know who you think planned this, and I have know idea what you mean by the Commonwealths prophetic actions. If you are referring to some racial angle in the past that makes it even more impressive that the areas are so integrated not less.

The only point I was making with this is that the area is well integrated racially, ethnically, and socioeconomically despite its high level of conservatism. Probably in large part due to the military (both the conservatism and the integration), but still kind of funny considering the way conservatives are portrayed by the media.

The city of St Louis is only about 300,000 people but the metro is 2.8 million... 95% of which is sprawling suburbs which look a lot like the sprawling suburbs in HR. I know that area very well as I have lived in North County and still have family there. What does that have to do with us?

[goofy328]

My guess would be that whoever allowed existing cities to become Independent Cites back in 1876 figured it would be a good way to give the cities greater autonomy than what normally exists in a traditional city-county relationship, which makes it easier for county urbanization to occur.

I'm also suggesting that Virginia is in a unique situation because of the legal differences that exist here, as we are a Commonwealth, have Independent Cites, and who knows what else going on that puts this area in a unique position.

All that is mentioned in the study posits Virginia in a good way. At the same time, when other cities grew quickly in the early twentieth century cities here were able to learn from their mistakes. Virginia Beach is a very young city. So I would hope that it could find a way to avoid some of the mistakes made in old cities, like St. Louis, Baltimore, or Detroit.

You can't ask what some of these older cities have to do with HR and then point to a study that differentiates HR from older cities. We want to talk about what makes Virgina Beach better, but we don't want to explore why Virginia Beach is better. I'm suggesting that the process could have started back in the 19th century. I could be wrong, I typically am, but its just a theory, that's all.

[UHgrad]

Originally Posted by goofy328

You can't ask what some of these older cities have to do with HR and then point to a study that differentiates HR from older cities. We want to talk about what makes Virgina Beach better, but we don't want to explore why Virginia Beach is better. I'm suggesting that the process could have started back in the 19th century. I could be wrong, I typically am, but its just a theory, that's all.

That last study doesn't just compare HR to older cities it compared HR to all metros over 1million population... and Norfolk (the urban center of the metro) is as old as most of those cities anyways. Those old cities pretty much all have newer suburbs too that would be comparable to Chesapeake, VB, Suffolk, etc.... St Louis County, for example, is all sprawling suburbs built in the 60s - 90s full of walmarts and strip malls just like most other suburbs in this country are. But the point that VA allows for all independent cities is a fair one, for better or worse it makes us unique in the commonwealth.

I don't know what makes VB and HR unique in these ways. Some of it may be independent cities, some is definitely the military influence, some is the large middle class black population here, some is probably the lack of dense urban ghettos full of isolated poverty, some is probably the high rates of marriage (since single motherhood is a large driver of poverty). It is beyond the scope of my knowledge to give a definitive answer.