1.9 million people and sports team... (Virginia Beach, Norfolk: hotels, buy, theater)

[damian]

If you look at the website, where it profiles the cities, it has listed "virginia beach/norfolk", thus the number of 1.9 million is implying the metro area including the peninsula..according to the 2000 census, the area had 1.5 million people, today it is around 1.7 million. Other sources have hampton roads over 2million by 2030, so I dont know where forbes got its information.

back to the poverty issue...you cant compare the cities of Norfolk, NN, or Portsmouth's income to say Fulton county or Denver county. In Virginia, cities are seperate entities from counties, thus the cities in VA typically fare worse in terms of statistics of income and crime since they are not buffered by the counties. Va Beach, Chespeake and Suffolk are the product of city/county mergers and they function more as counties than cities. Noone has mentioned James City, York County, Poquoson, Isle of Wight on this board. These localities have high income levels, and when you factor in those numbers, Hampton Roads does not fare so bad. Retailers such as Nordstroms, Banana, Anthropologie, Burberry, trader joes, and Hugo Boss do not relocate to "poverty" stricken areas

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by xGrendelx

I'm done, man. All I know is Forbes is a better source than Randomdude on city-data, so I'm going to go with them. Who knows if they meant the METRO area or not? All I can go by is what they wrote which says nothing of the rest of Hampton Roads. Ask them if it really eats you up.

You are the only one who has the inability to not only acknowledge the fact that they are referring to Hampton Roads metro area, but you also apparently have a problem admitting you are wrong.

Riddle me this, why is it that every other person on this board can take one look at those numbers and know that they arent referring to Virginia Beach alone, yet YOU, and ONLY you stick to the notion that they are? This isnt rocket science here. I bet if you put the supporting data on a sixth grade SOL, 90% of the kids would come to the same conclusion.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by damian

If you look at the website, where it profiles the cities, it has listed "virginia beach/norfolk", thus the number of 1.9 million is implying the metro area including the peninsula..according to the 2000 census, the area had 1.5 million people, today it is around 1.7 million. Other sources have hampton roads over 2million by 2030, so I dont know where forbes got its information.

back to the poverty issue...you cant compare the cities of Norfolk, NN, or Portsmouth's income to say Fulton county or Denver county. In Virginia, cities are seperate entities from counties, thus the cities in VA typically fare worse in terms of statistics of income and crime since they are not buffered by the counties. Va Beach, Chespeake and Suffolk are the product of city/county mergers and they function more as counties than cities. Noone has mentioned James City, York County, Poquoson, Isle of Wight on this board. These localities have high income levels, and when you factor in those numbers, Hampton Roads does not fare so bad. Retailers such as Nordstroms, Banana, Anthropologie, Burberry, trader joes, and Hugo Boss do not relocate to "poverty" stricken areas

I can compare them, because its the same number of people, in roughly the same geographic area. Thats part of my argument though, the Hampton Roads area must deal with the "7 cities" syndrome, unlike other major cities which are largely seats of united counties. In order to have equivalent action, funding, etc, we must get seven independent cities on board, who already argue over everything, and have very different demographics, income levels, and motivations. Fulton County doesnt have to do this, or Allegheny County.

As for a couple high end retailers relocating here. That is not the same. There is some wealth here, and there are a whole lot of poor people who like to act like they are wealthy, and there is a whole lot of high dollar tourists. This is easily enough for a couple high end stores to open. There are two "Trader Joes" in St. Louis, MO, 1 in Pittsburgh, 1 in Wilmington, DE, and 1 in Milwaukee, WI. None of these are bastions of wealth, but they have enough wealthy people to keep a few high end stores afloat.

Besides, the only reason Nordstroms came here was because McArthur got hyped by the developers to be a high end mall. If you remember, when it was new, it had all kinds of higher end retailers. Most of them are long gone, and from what I hear the Nordstroms there isnt doing great either. Turns out, sometimes store developers can be idiots the same as any other schmoe.

[damian]

I agree that the 7 cities dilema does hurt the area. Honestly, state politics in the 60s and 70s hurt the area with all of the local counties reverting to city status (Princess Anne, Norfolk, Nansemond, Warwick, and Elizabeth) all counties that should be circled around Norfolk and Portsmouth. Either way, hopefully one day a team will relocate to this area.

As for Mac Mall, its has had its ups and downs, part of the reason some of those stores have closed were because the chains were going downhill to begin with. Revenues from both Mac mall and Nordstroms have been going up every year (the mens section has definitely expanded over the years). My point with the higher end retail argument is that this area is not as poor as people make it out to be. There are alot of retireed military here with huge pensions that does not get factored in income level analysis

[xGrendelx]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

You are the only one who has the inability to not only acknowledge the fact that they are referring to Hampton Roads metro area, but you also apparently have a problem admitting you are wrong.

Riddle me this, why is it that every other person on this board can take one look at those numbers and know that they arent referring to Virginia Beach alone, yet YOU, and ONLY you stick to the notion that they are? This isnt rocket science here. I bet if you put the supporting data on a sixth grade SOL, 90% of the kids would come to the same conclusion.

Fine. You win. I bow down to the almighty Randomdude! I was wrong and now I'm apparently dumber than 90% of sixth graders.

But riddle ME this: why is it that YOU and ONLY you are the childish member who resorts to ad hominem while everyone else can go along and discuss a topic with respect?

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by damian

I agree that the 7 cities dilema does hurt the area. Honestly, state politics in the 60s and 70s hurt the area with all of the local counties reverting to city status (Princess Anne, Norfolk, Nansemond, Warwick, and Elizabeth) all counties that should be circled around Norfolk and Portsmouth. Either way, hopefully one day a team will relocate to this area.

As for Mac Mall, its has had its ups and downs, part of the reason some of those stores have closed were because the chains were going downhill to begin with. Revenues from both Mac mall and Nordstroms have been going up every year (the mens section has definitely expanded over the years). My point with the higher end retail argument is that this area is not as poor as people make it out to be. There are alot of retireed military here with huge pensions that does not get factored in income level analysis

I do agree that there are a whole lot of retirees here, and many have some money, but how can you even really count them? The primary demographic of a sports team are males between the ages of 18 and 45. If we were talking setting up a PGA Tour golf course, ok, but how many 60 year old retirees are going to follow the modern NBA with more then a passive interest? Nordstroms could probably count on this demographic, but the "Norfolk Hoopsters" couldnt.

I think that the high incomes of some of these older folks tremendously skews the data on this area. I know, probably 50 people my age in the area (mid to late 20's), close enough to know their income, and I am doing better, financially, then all of them, and there is no way I could afford to attend more then 1 NBA game a year. Most are in retail or hospitality, or caught in some dead end job, or in the low ranks of the service, and even the ones who have a college education are mostly employed in professions that arent even related to their degree and are making dirt. All of them either live with their parents, or are in some set up where about 50-75% of their household income is being used up in housing.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by xGrendelx

Fine. You win. I bow down to the almighty Randomdude! I was wrong and now I'm apparently dumber than 90% of sixth graders.

But riddle ME this: why is it that YOU and ONLY you are the childish member who resorts to ad hominem while everyone else can go along and discuss a topic with respect?

I didnt say you were "dumber", I was simply pointing out that it is not hard to figure out that there is no way that article is referring to Virginia Beach as a stand alone city, its not possible. You provided no logical defense to as why you believed that Virginia Beach could approach 1.9 million people, outside of, "Forbes said it", so they must have some inside information nobody else has access to. Do you always just take everything at its literal black and white print meaning?

My sixth grade comment was referencing that the logic I provided was not something some specialist locked in a room came up with and you need a PHD to follow, since you so kindly pointed out that my profession clearly doesnt qualify me to make such inferences. Any kid could put most of the facts together and see that there is no way, barring a huge torrent of change in philosophies, that Virginia Beach, stand alone, will even approach 1 million residents in 20 years, forget about 2 million.

[xGrendelx]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

I didnt say you were "dumber", I was simply pointing out that it is not hard to figure out that there is no way that article is referring to Virginia Beach as a stand alone city, its not possible. You provided no logical defense to as why you believed that Virginia Beach could approach 1.9 million people, outside of, "Forbes said it", so they must have some inside information nobody else has access to. Do you always just take everything at its literal black and white print meaning?

My sixth grade comment was referencing that the logic I provided was not something some specialist locked in a room came up with and you need a PHD to follow, since you so kindly pointed out that my profession clearly doesnt qualify me to make such inferences. Any kid could put most of the facts together and see that there is no way, barring a huge torrent of change in philosophies, that Virginia Beach, stand alone, will even approach 1 million residents in 20 years, forget about 2 million.

If I have problem admitting I'm wrong, you have a problem with letting things go. I said you were right, man! What more do you want? Maybe "Forbes said it" is all I need. I really couldn't care if Va Beach reaches 1.9 million people...at all. I saw an article, it sounded interesting, so I thought I'd share. That's it! I never attacked you or your job - an accountant is a very respectable career. Me saying I'll believe Forbes before you is not an attack. Being an accountant doesn't qualify you as an expert on population growth. That IS a logical argument. You can make inferences all day long, but that doesn't make you the expert even if you got it right this time. However, accusing me of not being able to figure out what 90% of sixth graders can, is NOT a logical argument. It's not an argument at all. It's an insult, a personal attack, and something I didn't ask for.

So fine. I'll say it again. I was WRONG. Virginia Beach will NOT grow to 1.9 million people by 2030, and we'll probably never, ever get a sports team. When Forbes wrote Virginia Beach, VA in their article, they meant all of Hampton Roads. Now it's your turn to accept your virtual victory and go on with life.

[Randomdude]

Originally Posted by xGrendelx

If I have problem admitting I'm wrong, you have a problem with letting things go. I said you were right, man! What more do you want? Maybe "Forbes said it" is all I need. I really couldn't care if Va Beach reaches 1.9 million people...at all. I saw an article, it sounded interesting, so I thought I'd share. That's it! I never attacked you or your job - an accountant is a very respectable career. Me saying I'll believe Forbes before you is not an attack. Being an accountant doesn't qualify you as an expert on population growth. That IS a logical argument. You can make inferences all day long, but that doesn't make you the expert even if you got it right this time. However, accusing me of not being able to figure out what 90% of sixth graders can, is NOT a logical argument. It's not an argument at all. It's an insult, a personal attack, and something I didn't ask for.

So fine. I'll say it again. I was WRONG. Virginia Beach will NOT grow to 1.9 million people by 2030, and we'll probably never, ever get a sports team. When Forbes wrote Virginia Beach, VA in their article, they meant all of Hampton Roads. Now it's your turn to accept your virtual victory and go on with life.

I didnt say you couldnt figure out what 90% of sixth graders can, I said that 90% of sixth graders could make the inference I made form all available information. This was in defense of the comment you made about me being an accountant, and not being qualified to make those kinds of inferences, it was NOT meant to be a personal jab at you, at all. I simply stated that the conclusion I came to needs no special "qualifications" or "prestige".

[xGrendelx]

Originally Posted by Randomdude

I didnt say you couldnt figure out what 90% of sixth graders can, I said that 90% of sixth graders could make the inference I made form all available information. This was in defense of the comment you made about me being an accountant, and not being qualified to make those kinds of inferences, it was NOT meant to be a personal jab at you, at all. I simply stated that the conclusion I came to needs no special "qualifications" or "prestige".

Once again, accept the fact you won and move on. It's time to let it go.