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If you think suburbia is ghetto-proof, you are sorely mistaken. I could take you on a tour of some very nasty NYC suburbia, complete with crack houses, liquor stores with bars on the windows, and regular shootings. It's no south Bronx, but it's got city problems by the barrel.
I was referring to new development in the suburban counties. I was not talking about cities and towns that are 100-200 years old and at the end of their life cycle. Every county in SE PA and NY are going to have their areas of decline given the sheer age and density of this region. The ghetto proof areas I am talking about, at least in Pa, is the further reaches of the suburban counties where most of the new growth is occurring.
This conversation is getting racist and inaccurate. I agree Harrisburg is getting diverse. I look at census data as part of my occupation.
However, for example, there is also a very large, affluent Indian (Asian) population on the West Shore that has contributed to the economy with Hersha Hospitality among numerous other businesses. There is nothing wrong with diversity. It is good, makes the area more attractive to corporate relocation. Just make sure everyone gets a good education, a connection to their local community, and the resources to do something. There are lots and lots of people from humble backgrounds that have added to our country.
For danwxman poster, I have to say that it is success for a minority family to move into a well regarded school district. I don't mean that as an insult to Harrisburg S.D. but Cedar Cliff High is very successful at placing a high percentage of students into high-ranking universities.
Lemoyne is not going down a hole. If you have any doubts take a drive through White Oaks, Susquehanna Hills, or along Indiana Drive. Just drive across the Market Street Bridge from Harrisburg and look at the bluff. People are spending a lot of money in Lemoyne on new houses. I think the new liquour licenses will only help to make it hip.
New Cumberland, I will agree, has poor planning and administration. Houses should not be allowed to decay into trash and be divided into apartments. Bridge Street looks like hell (minus the two short blocks which include Coakley's) and everything south of Park is going to hell. What is up with that bar on stilts at the edge of the borough?
I think the real threat is Steelton and Highspire. I am very concerned that these two towns will become the ghettos of the area. I don't want to see it happen because they are the only two "ethnic" towns I can think of with early 20th century immigrants and the restaurants, etc. in the region. They are sort of like the Northeast part of the state; like Scranton or Hazleton.
Personally, I think Bellevue Park is doomed. My brother and sister-in-law were meeting a realtor to look at a house there and the police stopped them to see what they were doing in the area. To cut a long story short they also now live in Camp Hill. They were also prepared to pay tuition (essential there).
I do not mean to sound racist (have Jewish people in my family) by saying this but far uptown, Italian Lake has the Yeshiva. My mother's neighbor moved there from Camp Hill to be able to walk to temple. It also has the Cameron "valley" to separate out-of-control crime and disinvestment. I think Italian Lake will continue to appreciate.
I am curious to know what everyone thinks about Reed and his recent election problems. I have to admit I love him but I benefit from what he has done downtown which is the playground of the suburbs. He openly admitted that he would fight a McDetitt conversion to 'affordable housing'. I think he is a success but it sort of seems like he was ignoring the majority of his census.
This conversation is getting racist and inaccurate. I agree Harrisburg is getting diverse. I look at census data as part of my occupation.
However, for example, there is also a very large, affluent Indian (Asian) population on the West Shore that has contributed to the economy with Hersha Hospitality among numerous other businesses. There is nothing wrong with diversity. It is good, makes the area more attractive to corporate relocation. Just make sure everyone gets a good education, a connection to their local community, and the resources to do something. There are lots and lots of people from humble backgrounds that have added to our country.
For danwxman poster, I have to say that it is success for a minority family to move into a well regarded school district. I don't mean that as an insult to Harrisburg S.D. but Cedar Cliff High is very successful at placing a high percentage of students into high-ranking universities.
Lemoyne is not going down a hole. If you have any doubts take a drive through White Oaks, Susquehanna Hills, or along Indiana Drive. Just drive across the Market Street Bridge from Harrisburg and look at the bluff. People are spending a lot of money in Lemoyne on new houses. I think the new liquour licenses will only help to make it hip.
New Cumberland, I will agree, has poor planning and administration. Houses should not be allowed to decay into trash and be divided into apartments. Bridge Street looks like hell (minus the two short blocks which include Coakley's) and everything south of Park is going to hell. What is up with that bar on stilts at the edge of the borough?
I think the real threat is Steelton and Highspire. I am very concerned that these two towns will become the ghettos of the area. I don't want to see it happen because they are the only two "ethnic" towns I can think of with early 20th century immigrants and the restaurants, etc. in the region. They are sort of like the Northeast part of the state; like Scranton or Hazleton.
Personally, I think Bellevue Park is doomed. My brother and sister-in-law were meeting a realtor to look at a house there and the police stopped them to see what they were doing in the area. To cut a long story short they also now live in Camp Hill. They were also prepared to pay tuition (essential there).
I do not mean to sound racist (have Jewish people in my family) by saying this but far uptown, Italian Lake has the Yeshiva. My mother's neighbor moved there from Camp Hill to be able to walk to temple. It also has the Cameron "valley" to separate out-of-control crime and disinvestment. I think Italian Lake will continue to appreciate.
I am curious to know what everyone thinks about Reed and his recent election problems. I have to admit I love him but I benefit from what he has done downtown which is the playground of the suburbs. He openly admitted that he would fight a McDetitt conversion to 'affordable housing'. I think he is a success but it sort of seems like he was ignoring the majority of his census.
Interesting post. I don't think all of Lemoyne will go down. But the area south of Market street has really changed in the past few years and sadly I don't think there is much hope for that area. No doubt the northern part of the borough up on the hill (where it is mostly single family houses) will continue to be desirable. And it does have the fact that it is part of a pretty good school district going for it.
I strongly disagree with your assessment of Bellevue Park. I drove through just yesterday and I saw not one house for sale. Harrisburg is a city of transition right now and there are houses for sale on nearly every block in the city, but I couldn't find one there. This is not something you would expect for a neighborhood in decline. I saw young, middle-class families walking dogs and strollers. It's so close to the ghetto it's amazing, but yet it's a very stable neighborhood that is still very separated from the nearby downtrodden areas. I'm confused by that cop comment, not sure what that had to do with anything.
I don't know what to say about Reed. I think he did a good job but got too cocky. I voted for Ford and think he would have been the best choice. The fact of the matter is that Reed and his supporters got complacent and just expected him to cruise to another re-election. Meanwhile, Linda Thompson motivated and mobilized her base and got out the vote, period. What it means for the city it's too early to tell. I really think Linda Thompson is going to be the "John Street" of Harrisburg. Ed Rendell did great things for center city Philly, but ignored a lot of the neighborhoods and cut city services. Reed did a lot of good things for downtown and midtown, but quite frankly city services have been lacking and a lot of neighborhoods haven't received attention. Street took office in Philly and center city continued to thrive DESPITE him, and I think downtown and midtown Harrisburg will continue to thrive and get better DESPITE her. Meanwhile, she will pay more attention to the under served areas of Harrisburg like Street did with Philly. I think the fact that Dan Miller is going to be city controller will also help keep Thompson under control.
Thanks for posting your views about the Harrisburg mayoralty race. It will be interesting to see how things turn out. From my point of view (someone who doesn't live in the city, and won't be moving there since I signed up to buy a wee tiny condo here in the suburbs today), the impression I had of Reed was that he was a major player in creating the feel of a 'city as male oriented theme park' from the ruins of the old Harrisburg with his Civil War, Sports and Wild West museums. Since I'm not a dude, or a local person, this could be because I'm not in tune with the central PA vibe.
I hadn't been paying attention to this election season at all since I thought I might be moving out of state. It was suprising that Reed wasn't running unopposed. Whoever wins in November, I hope they treat (all) the people right!
Well, in my daughter's kindergarten class at Hershey, 8 out of 20 kids are non-white, and even many of the white kids (ours included) don't have typical PA Dutch surnames.
To start, I lived in Harrisburg for 6 years. Lived on North Street (downtown), Boas Street (Midtown) and N 4th (god-awful part of Midtown). Harrisburg is not all it's cracked-up to be. Most of it, including large chunks of Midtown, look like the third world. I was duped by all of the hype to buy a house in middle of "reemerging" Midtown. Big mistake! I bought on N 4th Street. People kept telling me to wait a few years for the area to improve. Guess what? It never did. It depressed me just to live there. People will blab on and on about the Riley Cinema, Broad Street Market, Alvaro Bake Shop. A few businesses do NOT make a city. I give credit to the people who have tried. Fortunately, I was able to sell my house in summer of 08. I took a loss. A big loss. Was still the best decision of my life! As far as Harrisburg being diverse, please. It's anything but diverse. You don't even have the great ethnic pockets that most cities do -- Little Italy, Greek Town, China Town, etc. It's pretty much black and white. One last thing, now that prices are coming down in much more desirable areas of the state/country, there will soon be a mass exodus from Harrisburg. As soon as the economy improves, 80% of the productive, working residents will be out of there in no time. Just my thoughts. Thanks.
To start, I lived in Harrisburg for 6 years. Lived on North Street (downtown), Boas Street (Midtown) and N 4th (god-awful part of Midtown). Harrisburg is not all it's cracked-up to be. Most of it, including large chunks of Midtown, look like the third world. I was duped by all of the hype to buy a house in middle of "reemerging" Midtown. Big mistake! I bought on N 4th Street. People kept telling me to wait a few years for the area to improve. Guess what? It never did. It depressed me just to live there. People will blab on and on about the Riley Cinema, Broad Street Market, Alvaro Bake Shop. A few businesses do NOT make a city. I give credit to the people who have tried. Fortunately, I was able to sell my house in summer of 08. I took a loss. A big loss. Was still the best decision of my life! As far as Harrisburg being diverse, please. It's anything but diverse. You don't even have the great ethnic pockets that most cities do -- Little Italy, Greek Town, China Town, etc. It's pretty much black and white. One last thing, now that prices are coming down in much more desirable areas of the state/country, there will soon be a mass exodus from Harrisburg. As soon as the economy improves, 80% of the productive, working residents will be out of there in no time. Just my thoughts. Thanks.
That sucks you took a loss..but if you look at the stats, property values were still rising most of last year and have only this year started to level out or slightly decline, definetely better then the national housing market and even better then the region's housing market.
Once again, I think your expectations are WAY out of whack. Expecting a city the size of Harrisburg to have a Little Italy, Greektown, etc??? Not going to happen. What Harrisburg does have is a very active Asian part of town (the South Side) that has its own Asian Mall and dozens of Asian oriented shops/businesses/restaurants nearby. Harrisburg's Jewish community is strong in Uptown and the Hispanic community is growing by leaps and bounds on South Allison Hill (though unfortunately not a safe area to inhabit, yet). For a city its size we have some great diversity.
The stats prove just how much more diverse the metro has become. Expecting it to be a mini-Philly or mini-Miami? Absolutely not going to be that any time soon. But pretending it is some backwater redneck white or black only is NOT true whatsoever, not even close.
Another comment about the growth of Midtown. There a lot of different feelings on this. I would say about 60-70% of people who live here or who have lived here think it's getting better would agree things are changing for the good. Then there's another group that make up the remainder that continually bash the city, Midtown's development, etc.
Midtown has come a long way in the past 20 or so years since it started to gentrify. I know a guy who lives on Boas street who bought his house for $7,000 back a couple decades ago and it's now probably worth closer to $200,000.
The thing with Harrisburg is it takes TIME. This isn't Philly, NYC or Washington DC. Gentrification is a VERY slow process here, but it's certainly been speeding up the past couple years and the national "back to the cities" movement has been helping I think. Old Uptown was a complete disaster a couple years ago and no one can claim it is any worse. Speaking specifically of 4th street, that stretch has a lot of issues that I think are related to Maclay street. Clean up Maclay and north 3rd/4th/5th etc will improve. One thing the area has going in its favor is the HACC redevelopment and the section 8 housing that was torn down at 4th and Harris. The homes near there are now all being renovated and that is probably the best buy in Midtown right now (since the "riff-raff" is gone).
I know a lot of people who have lived here for years and some even agree with you. Midtown, while its come a long way, still has a much longer way to go to be the urban liver's dream of a neighborhood. But the momentum is in the right direction and things have only been getting better in the past year or so with a handful of new art galleries and cafes, the new bookstore/cafe at 3rd and Verbeke and of course the new huge Midtown Arts Center complex.
One comment about the supposed "mass exodus" that is going to happen. I don't see it. If that was true we wouldn't be having so many residential rehabs occurring throughout Midtown right now, EVEN in such a bad economy. For one, the Riverview Manor apartment complex was recently completely remodeled and they are selling the building's 76 units. Over 45 sold in the first month! That doesn't show a mass exodus to me. Ironically you might think, many were people moving here from larger cities such as Washington DC, Baltimore and Philadelphia.
This is a good thing. I'm sorry but the "natives" in this area just do not posses the skills needed to fill the changing job market, which is why so many companies have to look elsewhere (other states and internationally) to fill open positions.
So far, the vast majority of migration and immigration to this area has been middle class and legal. The Asian population is just absolutely booming, there is even a growing "Asiantown" in South Harrisburg right now where you drive along and see nothing but Korean, Vietnamese and Chinese shops, stores and restaurants. I think this is a great thing. Again, we haven't seen the huge increase in illegal immigration (yet) so right now things are good.
Very good response to mattjd's posting regarding the population increase in the various areas named in Pa. that include minority groups. It should be a welcomed change. Intelligent, well-bred, exposed individuals would know this and not spending meaningless time grumbling about things that you can not change. Go welcome your new neighbors to the neighborhood instead.
This is a good thing. I'm sorry but the "natives" in this area just do not posses the skills needed to fill the changing job market, which is why so many companies have to look elsewhere (other states and internationally) to fill open positions.
So far, the vast majority of migration and immigration to this area has been middle class and legal. The Asian population is just absolutely booming, there is even a growing "Asiantown" in South Harrisburg right now where you drive along and see nothing but Korean, Vietnamese and Chinese shops, stores and restaurants. I think this is a great thing. Again, we haven't seen the huge increase in illegal immigration (yet) so right now things are good.
I simply find it hard to believe that none of the area people, what you call 'natives' of the area, do not possess whatever skills are necessary, especially in light of the fact that this excuse is used all over the USA. And what was so wrong with Harrisburg that the new influx of Asians and all their shops and restaurants improved on?
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