Hawaii vs. New Zealand (Honolulu, Lahaina: new house, unemployment rate, purchase)

[HankDfrmSD]

I found the opinions here about moving children around interesting, because I am a military retiree and my three children spent most of there formative years in Hawaii, between stints in California, Connecticut, Guam and Washington, DC.

Here is a list of "Military Brats" who did pretty well:

List of military brats - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[crazy carrie]

lane_change, having a house with no tree unfortunately doesn't mean you won't have to rake if everyone else has trees. My parents' house doesn't have a tree in either yard, but everyone else on the block has trees and all their leaves blow into their yard. It's like we might as well have a huge sycamore tree!

[SurferCocoa]

Lane_change, I do not know about your financial situation, nor care to know. I congratulated you warmly about a decision to move to Hawaii. It is truly the greatest place you can find, life-style wise. There is no question that your kids will be very happy there. To me, aside the financial considerations, the place is as PERFECT as can be.
I just explained why I did not want to take my chances, as I did not have much savings at the time my kids were born, nor will I have any now if I had been able to live in Hawaii for the last 9 years.

Lucky you if you can live there permanently, and this is not sarcastic. In fact, I might be a little envious.

[lane_change]

I only mention it because I was not looking for reasons not to move simply due to the costs of living there...I was more interested in the information regarding schools, social acceptance, jobs and salary compensation (because, again, I can't live on a 100% negative cash flow), weather, friendliness, shopping, activities, etc... If I was moving just because of money or for any real financial reasons, I would never choose Hawaii or New Zealand or even California.

The comments about the trees and raking was just to make the point that people learn as they go. If I move to Hawaii, will it be perfect? of course not. Will I regret it? possibly. Is it worth doing? There is the question at hand and that is why I am searching for the information from people who have been there and done that. I haven't found many people who have posted that are Hawaiian transplants that moved with family in tow. I have heard a few things here and there about friends and such, but I've not yet read the post by the person who did what I am considering and loved it or hated it and the reasons for their reaction. It's all a learning process, again, I won't do anything for 2 more years more than likely unless my wife or I found a job opportunity that accelerated our decision making process. I am just feeling it out and we have already discussed a vacation this summer to go see some of the islands...but I think just from what I have read already, that I need to probably focus on a smaller town outside of Oahu where I can get that remote feel without truly being remote as I would be on Kauia.

[Hp1167]

I want to point out that becoming a university professor, especially at UH, is not as easy as snapping your fingers, getting a PhD and walking into a job. The odds of that happening are incredibly low.

I would strive for it but seriously plan on her doing something else entirely.

I have friends who live in Lahaina and Kauai. Each are highly educated and have their Masters and years of experience in their particular careers. The ones who moved to Maui work at a resort and the ones who moved to Kauai work on a farm in a tractor. They love it, but they would have never expected to be working the jobs they do and they will never be able to afford a house. Another family I know that moved to Kauai - both trained engineers - one is now a stay at home mom and the father works at a seed farm irrigating.

That's the reality of life in Hawaii.

[SurferCocoa]

Originally Posted by Hp1167

I want to point out that becoming a university professor, especially at UH, is not as easy as snapping your fingers, getting a PhD and walking into a job. The odds of that happening are incredibly low.

I would strive for it but seriously plan on her doing something else entirely.

I have friends who live in Lahaina and Kauai. Each are highly educated and have their Masters and years of experience in their particular careers. The ones who moved to Maui work at a resort and the ones who moved to Kauai work on a farm in a tractor. They love it, but they would have never expected to be working the jobs they do and they will never be able to afford a house. Another family I know that moved to Kauai - both trained engineers - one is now a stay at home mom and the father works at a seed farm irrigating.

That's the reality of life in Hawaii.

I do not think that Lane_change will believe you. I think he has to experiment "reality" himself.

[whtviper1]

Originally Posted by lane_change

I only mention it because I was not looking for reasons not to move simply due to the costs of living there...I was more interested in the information regarding schools, social acceptance, jobs and salary compensation (because, again, I can't live on a 100% negative cash flow), weather, friendliness, shopping, activities, etc... If I was moving just because of money or for any real financial reasons, I would never choose Hawaii or New Zealand or even California.

The comments about the trees and raking was just to make the point that people learn as they go. If I move to Hawaii, will it be perfect? of course not. Will I regret it? possibly. Is it worth doing? There is the question at hand and that is why I am searching for the information from people who have been there and done that. I haven't found many people who have posted that are Hawaiian transplants that moved with family in tow. I have heard a few things here and there about friends and such, but I've not yet read the post by the person who did what I am considering and loved it or hated it and the reasons for their reaction. It's all a learning process, again, I won't do anything for 2 more years more than likely unless my wife or I found a job opportunity that accelerated our decision making process. I am just feeling it out and we have already discussed a vacation this summer to go see some of the islands...but I think just from what I have read already, that I need to probably focus on a smaller town outside of Oahu where I can get that remote feel without truly being remote as I would be on Kauia.

Hesitant to jump in here but here goes.

Let's start with paragraph 1.

Schools. As many will point out the public school system is not highly ranked in Hawaii. The teachers are poorly paid (figure $45K starting) and they are paid the same weather they are in the wealthiest neighborhoods or poorest. The school system is broke and it isn't likely to get fixed soon. Want a good education for the kids - think private school and budget for it.

Social Acceptance. Only you and your family can answer that question - if you have the interpersonal skills to adjust to other cultures, you'll be fine. If you don't you won't be happy.

Jobs. I'll speak to Oahu. There are jobs. In terms of salary - I'm on the mgmt team of a fairly large healthcare software organization. Cost of living is comparable to San Francisco with compensation anywhere from 30% to 50% lower. I also know from friends at ProService and at our company - nearly 9 in 10 who move to Hawaii move back within 2 years. There is a huge hesitancy to hire people from the mainland - there is enough supply here in Hawaii already. I personally make 50% less with bonuses than when I was employed in SF.

Weather. 82 and sunny today. 82 and sunny tomorrow. And repeat. I could personally care less about the seasons. A lot of people say that and then ultimately find that they do.

Friendliness. See Social Acceptance.

Shopping. It sucks. Lot's of things you can't get here. Yes, we have a huge mall but the selection isn't anywhere near the mainland. Then take the same item and add 10% or more to it. Went to Best Buy to buy a computer - they were consistenly 10-20% more than the online prices and didn't stock most of the items. So, think limited items and more expensive. Oh, and when you see those great deals on TV whether it be for a pizza or whatever - you'll see the fine print on the ad, not applicable to Hawaii or the store doesn't even exist here.

Activities. I don't think I need to spell that out - there are plenty.

As far as paragraph 2. For the reasons above, it is very uncommon for a family to move to Hawaii unless it is a special circumstance. It's difficult at best to make the cash flow work. Generally, people who move here are single or married with no kids. Most families don't want to burn their entire savings on a gut feel on one of the most remote places in the world.

So, unless you are fairly wealthy or are certain you have a career that can generate sufficient cash - do yourself a favor, let the kids grow up somwhere you can afford and when they go off to college, then move to Hawaii. Moving to Hawaii with children isn't helping the children if you are broke doing so.

Ok, let the hating begin.

[KauaiHiker]

CocoaSurfer: I can't seem to let go of your odd dissonance. You said (emphasis yours): "To exile them in N.Z. and deprive them of the BOUNTIES of the U.S.... only to have them return in their own country as complete strangers." But then: "Anyway. Hawaii is surely a wonderful place to live."

You have this weird fascination with the US. Hawaii is one third the geographic distance as NZ from the mainland US, yet surprisingly far culturally. Sure NZ is a smaller, simpler, more socialistic country, but it is also very Anglo-Saxon (despite the large Maori culture), unlike Hawaii. Don't get me wrong, both are great places to raise kids for sure, but if you are are worried about their return to the mainland, Hawaii can be very, very alienating.

My gf in college was from Honolulu, and I could tell she was having trouble adapting to the LA area where we went to school. The physical environment (smog, dry air, no beach) was part of it, but culturally, she was a fish out of water: never seen snow, so couldn't go on ski weekends, couldn't go home for Thanksgiving (only at Christmas), people asking her if they had flush toilets in Hawaii, just lots of little things. And she was hapa with family in Ohio.

But she was smart, and like so many Hawaiians on the mainland, she learned, she adapted, and she went on to be successful. But smarts and success are double-edged sword: many leave Hawaii for the opportunities on the mainland, never to go back (or worse, pining to go back, but can't because of jobs or family). I now live 2 blocks from her aging grandmother, and she is in upstate NY.

This may be overthinking the issue, but you still may want to consider it: you may successfully put down permanant roots and give your kids a great childhood in Hawaii, but there's a higher chance they may be uprooted if they follow the academic and or business route in college. I'm not saying there aren't any opportunities in Hawaii itself, but what is normal on the mainland (going away to college, kids moving to a different state for a job, visiting home on holidays with their new family), puts you right back in the child-alienated-from-his-home-and-family when that happens to someone from Hawaii. Hawaii has a lot going for it, but it may not be as stable a home base as you might imagine for your kids, and being part of the US has nothing to do with it.

More about car hobbies: lane_change, you said you can wrench yourself, but you still need to order most specialized parts from the mainland (extra cost and hassle). But it can be done, I've seen a surprising number of classic and muscle cars here on Kaua'i. Now, if you had a Tacoma truck, no problem (but those are far from rare or unique).

[SurferCocoa]

Originally Posted by KauaiHiker

This may be overthinking the issue, but you still may want to consider it: you may successfully put down permanant roots and give your kids a great childhood in Hawaii, but there's a higher chance they may be uprooted if they follow the academic and or business route in college.

I surely did. And I explained in great detail why I was not raising my kids in Hawaii.
Everybody, including myself, have taken great care to present all to him. The schools, the jobs, the "roots", the cost of home.... I do not think that the ethnic profile is an issue. The one good thing about military kids, (among other very good things), is that they are very adaptable and open minded as well as respectful of other cultures. If the OP lived in Japan, and like it, for sure Hawaii is better than the mainland. Japanese have a more refined, quiet acceptance, way of life, and so have the Caucasians living in Hawaii.

The only caveat with Hawaii is being able to afford it, then let him figure out if he can afford it.
Since I do not really know what his financial situation is, and it is not any of my business, then I will say Hawaii is the best. Now, if the OP cannot afford it, he will find out very fast by himself, like all who tried. And if he can make it, good for him. I will just hope it is not a great financial loss, to sell his home and belongings, or ship them to Hawaii, and then end up not getting what he hopes for. But I trust that between him and his wife, who sound better educated than he is, they will come to do the right decision.

I already sound too paternalistic. I already gave him unsolicited advices about his children, because I feel qualified to do so. There is no way I am going to give him financial advice too.

[SurferCocoa]

Originally Posted by HankDfrmSD

I found the opinions here about moving children around interesting, because I am a military retiree and my three children spent most of there formative years in Hawaii, between stints in California, Connecticut, Guam and Washington, DC.

I did not want to say that "military brats" were dammaged goods. Most of them are actually much more adaptable and open minded than let's say, somebody born and raised in Kansas. The wandering bug is just one of the side effect, and it is not always bad. No moving often is going to diminish a child IQ or creativity. Quite to the contrary. Those kids are more curious and know so much more than most kids who get their facts from TV or books.

I have seen adults military brats, who enjoyed their childhood traveling very much. They would anticipate each move as a greast adventure. And took full advantage of the opportunities offered. Sometimes they still communicate with friends in other countries. In fact they will brag on how many places they visited. They can speak 3 languages fluently. They will choose jobs that allow them to travel. Now some of their kids might not be of this type. They might be of the 2nd or 3rd type described below. This wandering bug effects get passed from generation to generation.

Some others followed passively, and did not mind too much when they were kids. But now, they have some kind of identity crisis. A young man was telling me: "when people ask me the typical "where do you come from?" I do not know what to say. I was born in Germany, went to primary school in Virginia...." (fill up the rest) Where am I from?" And the wandering bug is severely hampering their search for happiness.
They move in a new place, buy a new home as to show their intention to settle down this time. Fix it all the way they like. Enjoy it for 6 months. And then, inevitably comes the nagging question. Where next? For sure they will come up with a better place to be, and some fault with their current place, to justify another move. It can be a big burden for the spouse, the finances, and the kids. And if they are not able to move, they become very morose and depressed. Like their adrenaline is gone. And so, their kids might be of the 1st type, as described above, or the 2nd like their parents, or the 3rd.

Now, the 3rd type hated moving around. Completely hated it. Each move left some wounds. A lost friend, a favorite spot to watch the sunset. A favorite teacher, a girl friend. An abandoned toy that did not fit in the suitcases. They will deal with the trauma in different manners. Try to settle in one place and never move again, ever. Even if sometimes it is against their best interest to stay in their place. It's like moving has become taboo. Be scared to get intimate friends, since they always got lost... and so on. Sometimes the case is so extreme, like being scared to board a plane, that they need counseling too.

Their anguish can be manifested in many ways. But there is a deep anguish. Part of it is that they fell like their parents never cared about THEIR need. Just did whatever suited THEM.

And one of the main goal of counseling is stopping the bug from affecting the next kids. Ending the cycle.

Not all kids need counseling. If the parents were perceptive and attentive enough to their kid's needs, they could act as counselor themselves, and they often do.
A few appropriate and comforting words at the right time is all what was needed. If the parent knew how to show they cared and understood the pain is already half the job. And even if no pain showed, still it takes some finess to understand the inner feelings of a child.
I think that most military families nowadays recieve mandatory family counseling that include many other issues.


Well I can write a book about military brats wandering bug, which I spotted easily in the OP. But mostly, like I said, there is a lot of good coming from being a military brat. More good than bad, imo. Kids who traveled over have a more realistic understanding of life and a broad mindedness that cannot be learned in schools or in front of the TV.

So I hope that military people did not take offense on what I said.