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Old 04-06-2012, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Kūkiʻo, HI & Manhattan Beach, CA
2,442 posts, read 5,351,207 times
Reputation: 2259

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawena View Post
try to learn.... Hmmm... me thinks... there not mistakes they are done with intent. as far as repeating them.... well.... What is the difference with Iraq and Hawaii... not much we had a queen and they had Saddam.. both were, under international law unjustly removed from power
Liliʻuokalani never committed genocide against her subjects or started wars, while Saddam Hussein seemed to enjoy killing some of his fellow Iraqis and provoked a war with Iran.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawena View Post
I found this post some where and I have made the very same conclusion.

US foreign policy = Saddam Hussein foreign policy
So in Hawaiian Studies today my professor made a good point today that we broke international laws and then try to enforce them on to others. The evidence he gave to us was that the US Annexed Hawaii to America when Hawaii was an independent nation. But when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait we spoke up and said that they can't do that under international law. Saddam Hussein made the point that he would leave Kuwait once Amerca leaves Hawaii. What he was citing was the fact that we broke international law when Hawaii was annexed and now America wants to enforce international laws. That is so stupid in my opinion. Who are we to determine what is right and wrong when we do things that are wrong as well?
Unfortunately, this ignores the geopolitical alliances that exist between nations. The Kuwaitis had alliances with other nations (including the United States) that came to their defense after they were invaded by Iraq. The Hawaiian Kingdom had diplomatic relations with other nations, but none of these nations came to its defense when its sovereignty was lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawena View Post
Now Iran wants to build a nuclear weapon and we want to stop them. As crazy as this sounds that is the most stupidest thing America can do. We actually used 2 nuclear bombs already. That is two more than any other nation in the world used. We should just mind our own business. If we are breaking international laws and not doing anything about it then we should NEVER enforce international laws.
The United States has used way more than 2 nuclear bombs. There are reasons why so many folks from Micronesia live in Hawaiʻi nowadays...
Pacific Proving Grounds - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would say something about the current state of "Hawaiian Studies" and some of the folks that teach it, but I don't wish to criticize my cousins...
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Old 04-06-2012, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Kailua
7,915 posts, read 9,450,572 times
Reputation: 3455
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawena View Post
I would hate to "assume" what your posts is to mean. is this all you read? your post is base on? do you know who couldn't vote?
My post meant that 93% of the people who voted in 1959 overwhelmingly voted for statehood. Furthermore, when you look at a territory like Puerto Rico where the vote is around 50% - the push to become a state isn't very strong. I'd bet if the vote in Puerto Rico voted 93% to become a state it would become one.

Nope, don't know who couldn't vote - I'd like to hear more on that. I do know it had the highest voter turnout in Hawaii history. I also know Native Hawaiians were US citizens in 1959 and were eligible to vote on the referendum.

Of course, had the United States taken up King Kamehameha III request to become part of the US in the late 1840's/early 1850's this discussion wouldn't be happening - or would it.

Last edited by whtviper1; 04-06-2012 at 08:25 PM..
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Old 04-06-2012, 08:52 PM
 
889 posts, read 1,348,031 times
Reputation: 1182
Quote:
Originally Posted by whtviper1 View Post
On all islands, at least 93% favored statehood. The people of Hawaii had a say.
This is false. The one thing I remember hearing about the referendum is that the Ni'ihau precinct voted against statehood. So there's one island that did not favor statehood, not surprisingly the only island where Hawaiians are the majority (probably 95% of the 100-150 residents, or howerver many there were at the time). Also, the separation of Hawaiians on each island, unable to form any sort of economic or political bloc has worked in favor of the pro-statehood movement. Obviously, the Hawaiians were but a tiny majory, and after decades of government suppression, not even an influence in the lands of their former kingdom. In other words:

The Hawaiians had NO say. The people who annexed Hawaii said whatever they wanted.

Oh, and the other thing I do recall is that there was no option for self-rule. Under UN procedures, which have helped other territories achieve self determination, you need a 2 step decision process: independent or dependent, and if the latter, autonomous (eg remain a territory) or full integration (become a state). Not that it would've made any difference given the first point.

Essentially, the Hawaiians got railroaded.

If the vote had been taken in 1898, the outcome would've been quite different. Here is a quote by from Arthur Waal Sr., a Norvegian and "the assistant postmaster at Lahaina, was asked to lower the Hawaiian flag for the last time on Aug. 12, 1898, so the American flag could take its place. He did so with an aching heart and a sense of history."

As I was looking up at the Hawaiian flag during the last
minutes of its official existence, I can truly say that I
had been very happy and contented in Old Hawaii, and
frankly regret the change.

I remember seeing that quote at the Lahaina Customs House and have been looking for it ever since. The article where I found it (Yahoo! Groups) also mentions: "When the Hawaiian flag was lowered in 1898, Waal wrote that there was so much sadness that the national anthem, "Hawaii Pono'i," was sungsoftly and mournfully."

And regarding the success and failure of other decolonized nations, frankly they are each different and subject to so many factors you cannot make predictions. In general when a colonizer gives up a territory, it leaves it in shambles, unable to get on its own feet, sometimes actively undermining its chances. Of course, fledgeling nations with underdeveloped resources and no trained administrators or statesmen have a hard time steering the new ship of state.

I think it was an Algerian liberator who said something like: France left us standing at the edge of a precipice, and we took a great step forward. As a counter-example (with a few more years however), Ireland fought for it's independence from England, and then fought a civial war amongst its various factions, and after years of stagnation is now an economic powerhouse (depending on the global economy, but that's another thread).

But thankfully, the history of Hawaiian struggle for sovereignty has been, since Liliuokalani, one of non-violence and appeal to reason not arms.
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Old 04-06-2012, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Kūkiʻo, HI & Manhattan Beach, CA
2,442 posts, read 5,351,207 times
Reputation: 2259
Quote:
Originally Posted by whtviper1 View Post
My post meant that 93% of the people who voted in 1959 overwhelmingly voted for statehood. Furthermore, when you look at a territory like Puerto Rico where the vote is around 50% - the push to become a state isn't very strong. I'd bet if the vote in Puerto Rico voted 93% to become a state it would become one.

Nope, don't know who couldn't vote - I'd like to hear more on that. I do know it had the highest voter turnout in Hawaii history. I also know Native Hawaiians were US citizens in 1959 and were eligible to vote on the referendum.
A few years ago, Arnie Saiki presented an interesting perspective on the 1959 Hawaiʻi Statehood Plebiscite. Here's a link...
The Statehood Plebiscite | Imi Pono Projects

Even more interesting is an article about the "anti-Statehood" movement and the legacy of Kamokila Campbell. Here's a link to a PDF of an article about it...
http://evols.library.manoa.hawaii.ed...pdf?sequence=2
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Old 04-06-2012, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Kailua
7,915 posts, read 9,450,572 times
Reputation: 3455
Quote:
Originally Posted by KauaiHiker View Post
This is false. The one thing I remember hearing about the referendum is that the Ni'ihau precinct voted against statehood. So there's one island that did not favor statehood, not surprisingly the only island where Hawaiians are the majority (probably 95% of the 100-150 residents, or howerver many there were at the time). Also, the separation of Hawaiians on each island, unable to form any sort of economic or political bloc has worked in favor of the pro-statehood movement. Obviously, the Hawaiians were but a tiny majory, and after decades of government suppression, not even an influence in the lands of their former kingdom. In other words:

The Hawaiians had NO say. The people who annexed Hawaii said whatever they wanted.

Oh, and the other thing I do recall is that there was no option for self-rule. Under UN procedures, which have helped other territories achieve self determination, you need a 2 step decision process: independent or dependent, and if the latter, autonomous (eg remain a territory) or full integration (become a state). Not that it would've made any difference given the first point.

Essentially, the Hawaiians got railroaded.

If the vote had been taken in 1898, the outcome would've been quite different. Here is a quote by from Arthur Waal Sr., a Norvegian and "the assistant postmaster at Lahaina, was asked to lower the Hawaiian flag for the last time on Aug. 12, 1898, so the American flag could take its place. He did so with an aching heart and a sense of history."

As I was looking up at the Hawaiian flag during the last
minutes of its official existence, I can truly say that I
had been very happy and contented in Old Hawaii, and
frankly regret the change.

I remember seeing that quote at the Lahaina Customs House and have been looking for it ever since. The article where I found it (Yahoo! Groups) also mentions: "When the Hawaiian flag was lowered in 1898, Waal wrote that there was so much sadness that the national anthem, "Hawaii Pono'i," was sungsoftly and mournfully."

And regarding the success and failure of other decolonized nations, frankly they are each different and subject to so many factors you cannot make predictions. In general when a colonizer gives up a territory, it leaves it in shambles, unable to get on its own feet, sometimes actively undermining its chances. Of course, fledgeling nations with underdeveloped resources and no trained administrators or statesmen have a hard time steering the new ship of state.

I think it was an Algerian liberator who said something like: France left us standing at the edge of a precipice, and we took a great step forward. As a counter-example (with a few more years however), Ireland fought for it's independence from England, and then fought a civial war amongst its various factions, and after years of stagnation is now an economic powerhouse (depending on the global economy, but that's another thread).

But thankfully, the history of Hawaiian struggle for sovereignty has been, since Liliuokalani, one of non-violence and appeal to reason not arms.
Yep, my mistake - it was the major islands that voted over 93% on each island for statehood.

What do you mean Hawaiians had no say? Native Hawaiians were citizens in 1959 - they could vote - were they all boycotting the vote? If so, that wasn't a great strategy. As mentioned, Puerto Rico doesn't vote high for statehood - and, therefore - isn't a state. Only 8,000 people out of 140,000 votes - voted against statehood. Why didn't native Hawaiians vote against statehood at that time - surely, such an important vote would have rallied all these anti-statehood native Hawaiians to got out and vote against statehood.

Do you think Hawaii would be a state if the vote was 50/50? I don't think so. But when 93% of the people say yes - then, it happens. 93%+ on each major island. What were the demographics on the Big Island in 1959 - certainly they could have gotten anti-statehood votes, couldn't they?

And as I mentioned - it is commonly known King Kamehameha III asked the US for statehood which was rejected by the Secretary of State. What if the US said yes then - would the discussion be moot?
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Old 04-06-2012, 09:50 PM
 
889 posts, read 1,348,031 times
Reputation: 1182
Oops, I meant to write: "the Hawaiians were a tiny _minority_" at the time of the statehood referendum.

But otherwise, are you being obtuse? After taking over a peaceful country by military show of force, with the help of a financially dependent puppet gov't, annexing it, stationing huge military bases there, and encouraging anglo and asian immigration, how can the Hawaiians have a voice anymore? You carefully said "the people of Hawaii" because you knew the Hawaiians themselves had no say because they became a minority.

And you like to repeat that they were citizens, but how then can you justify outlawing the native language and culture for so many years (I don't know exactly when the bans and insidious practices were in place)--that doesn't sound like citizens with full rights to me.

Oh, yeah, one more thing I remember reading: military personnel stationed in Hawaii at the time of the referendum got to vote in it. Talk about stacking the deck in your favor.

And yes, there is a lot of nuance in who wanted what for the future of the country. But you cannot equate peaceful negociations (even in secret) that went nowhere with subsequent actual armed takeover and later white-washing (kinda literally).
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Old 04-06-2012, 10:04 PM
 
Location: Kailua
7,915 posts, read 9,450,572 times
Reputation: 3455
Quote:
Originally Posted by KauaiHiker View Post
Oops, I meant to write: "the Hawaiians were a tiny _minority_" at the time of the statehood referendum.

But otherwise, are you being obtuse? After taking over a peaceful country by military show of force, with the help of a financially dependent puppet gov't, annexing it, stationing huge military bases there, and encouraging anglo and asian immigration, how can the Hawaiians have a voice anymore? You carefully said "the people of Hawaii" because you knew the Hawaiians themselves had no say because they became a minority.

And you like to repeat that they were citizens, but how then can you justify outlawing the native language and culture for so many years (I don't know exactly when the bans and insidious practices were in place)--that doesn't sound like citizens with full rights to me.

Oh, yeah, one more thing I remember reading: military personnel stationed in Hawaii at the time of the referendum got to vote in it. Talk about stacking the deck in your favor.

And yes, there is a lot of nuance in who wanted what for the future of the country. But you cannot equate peaceful negociations (even in secret) that went nowhere with subsequent actual armed takeover and later white-washing (kinda literally).
When did I say anything about justifying outlawing native language and culture? You are taking a lot of liberties with what I said.

I said -

There was a vote. Over 93% of the people on each major island voted for it. Native Hawaiians were citizens. A grand total of 8,000 people voted against it. It didn't seem terribly important for people - even Native Hawaiians to vote against statehood. And, by the way - the King of Hawaii in 1851 requested to become a state and was denied.
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:55 PM
 
1,728 posts, read 1,858,604 times
Reputation: 1685
So, IF Hawai'i was to be given back, who would it be given too? Who are the original Hawaiians? Here is another question, IF there was a vote in Hawai'i tomorrow about remaining a state, what do you think the outcome of that vote would be?
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:24 AM
 
Location: Kailua
7,915 posts, read 9,450,572 times
Reputation: 3455
Quote:
Originally Posted by McFrostyJ View Post
So, IF Hawai'i was to be given back, who would it be given too? Who are the original Hawaiians? Here is another question, IF there was a vote in Hawai'i tomorrow about remaining a state, what do you think the outcome of that vote would be?
Who votes? If you can trace your ancesters to Hawaii in the late 1700's when Captain Cook arrived? Or, you can trace your ancesters to the late 1800's during annexation? Or, residents of Hawaii.? Or - 51%+ Hawaiian? 100% Hawaiian?
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Old 04-07-2012, 12:30 AM
 
Location: Hawaii-Puna District
3,754 posts, read 8,629,017 times
Reputation: 2409
Quote:
Originally Posted by whtviper1 View Post
Who votes? If you can trace your ancesters to Hawaii in the late 1700's when Captain Cook arrived? Or, you can trace your ancesters to the late 1800's during annexation? Or, residents of Hawaii.? Or - 51%+ Hawaiian? 100% Hawaiian?
Right on....
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