Why doesn't Hawaii have an inter-island ferry system? (Honolulu: to buy, school)
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Comparing English Channel Ferries to Hawaii ferry needs is like comparing a pump needed to empty a swimming pool to the pump needed to empty a 55 gallon drum, Please stay away from such ridiculus comparrrison as it make one look pretty lame.
Comparring mainland costal ferries to Hawaii ferry needs is like comparing a pump needed to empty a flower vase to the pump needed to empty a 55 gallon drum, Please stay away from such unrelated comparissons as it makes one look pretty dumb.
Glad this thread got some attention, it's been very educational I understand now that Hawaii is far different than coastal Washington or North Carolina, and the problems that came with the Super Ferry. Still, I would have loved to have taken a ride on it, plowing through those seas would have been a total blast.
They say that crossing Lake Michigan during a November gale is the roughest ferry ride there is, I've yet to try that though....lol.
Comparing English Channel Ferries to Hawaii ferry needs is like comparing a pump needed to empty a swimming pool to the pump needed to empty a 55 gallon drum, Please stay away from such ridiculus comparrrison as it make one look pretty lame.
Boy, do I feel lame, because I can't figure out what the heck you are trying to say here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PacificFlights
Comparring mainland costal ferries to Hawaii ferry needs is like comparing a pump needed to empty a flower vase to the pump needed to empty a 55 gallon drum, Please stay away from such unrelated comparissons as it makes one look pretty dumb.
Yep, I must be dumb, because this makes no sense to me either. What ARE you trying to say with these comparisons?
At first I thought you might be talking about a comparison of distances, but the Dover - Calais crossing is about 30 miles, while the Oahu-Kauai crossing is about 80, so why would swimming pool = 30 miles and 55 gallon drum = 80 miles?
Then I thought you might be taking about a comparison of passenger volume, but it seems July 2008 was Hawai'i Superferry's best month, with a reported 36,600 passengers, whereas Washington State Ferries carried about a million passengers that same month. So how could mainland ferry volume = flower vase while Hawai'i ferry volume = 55 gal drum?
At the moment I am hopelessly tangled in your comparisons.
plowing through those seas would have been a total blast.
This is a symptom of the problem. Some humans like to plow through things. Build huge engines that consume a lot of energy and use them to catch some g's or some air or whatever. Joy ride.
Not to mention plowing through whales, turtles, and monk seals. Aren't that many endangered species in Lake Michigan, but Hawaii is the capital of endangered species.
If you build something or ride in something, you have to respect the people and the environment first and foremost.
I know it's not practical to run a ferry all the way out to Hawaii from the mainland, but wouldn't it make sense to have a comprehensive ferry service linking the islands?
Revisiting your original post, after doing more research, because it's an interesting question...
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight
It seems odd that if you have a car on one island, it's basically trapped there - should you want to visit another island, you have to pay big bucks for airfare, and more bucks for car rental - surly taking the car on the ferry would be far cheaper, and more practical than having to jet from island to island.
Yes, from a consumer's standpoint that seems true, although from a car rental company's perspective it's a perfect system now, and the airline companies love it too. Keep those conflicts of interest in mind, because they are one key to understanding the current state of affairs.
At several different times in Hawai'i's history there have been working ferry systems. There have been systems using sailing ships, steam ships, diesel ships, catamarans, passenger only ferries, the Super Ferry. And before any of that there was canoe traffic between the islands. Canoes gave way to sailing vessels because the larger boats carried more, then the steam ships did it faster, but they burned massive quantities of wood so the diesels took over, then some wars happened, and the economic base of Hawaiian life completely shifted, and the ferries of the 60s kept breaking down in rough seas, and cheap airfares killed the business, then the Super Ferry had too many unanticipated problems and too much opposition.
Each chapter of this checkered history ended for different reasons, but taken together they weave an interesting pattern. Each had a toehold for a specific window of time, but none had enough mass to survive the next twist in the story. There was enough interest to do a start up, again and again, but not enough interest to sustain it over time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthStarDelight
Any natives care to tell me why Hawaii doesn't have an Alaskan-style ferry system, or if one is planned for the future?
Why we don't have one? I suppose it really boils down to a lack of a compelling economic case. Simply stated, if it was a solid enough business proposition, someone would already be doing it, or should I say, still be doing it.
So, to review a few of the obstacles to having a working ferry system between the islands:
1. Rough seas and long distances make regular schedules hard to keep. That's not nearly as big an issue for cargo ships as it is for passenger carriers.
2. Environmental concerns, from protecting wildlife to preventing harbor erosion to deterring invasive species create a very complex regulatory and operating environment.
3. Companies with competing financial interests, like airlines and car rental companies, oppose it.
4. Individuals and community organizations which want to limit travel and development in the islands oppose it.
5. The market is limited, and seasonal, creating severe challenges for equipment and staff planning.
Note that in its best month ever, SuperFerry was only running half-full when it announced that in the fall it was cutting down to 2 round-trips a day between Oahu and Kauai, and then in December would cut down to 1. Then the courts shot it down for constitutional reasons, and bankruptcy consumed the assets.
Or did they? Hope springs eternal, and now there is fresh talk from several directions about starting up something new. Stay tuned.
" As for a state-run system, Alaska has oil revenue and cheap fuel that Hawaii doesn't"
Actually, the last time I was in Hilo the gas was cheaper than here in Alaska. Alaska exports oil and imports fuel. The refining that does happen in Alaska doesn't go far. There was a figure that the Alaska Marine Highway consumes 99% of the state's transportation budget to transport 1% of it's residents. I don't know if that figure is actually true, but they are not economical to operate. The fast ferries are even worse, burning more fuel per passenger than aircraft use. I rode the ferry basically for the experience only, unless your time is free its cheaper to take a puddle jumper to the destination and rent a car there even with the state subsidizing the trip. Basically it eats most of a day getting to the next town or you can get there in less than an hour on an airplane- not to mention that the planes have many trips per day versus many trips per week on the ferry.
Your statement about oil revenue is dead-on. Alaska has no state income or sales tax, last I checked over 41 billion dollars in savings, and it distributes a share of oil revenues to residents. That's how it affords the ferry system. Not to make a dig on Hawaii, but do you think a state-run ferry system could function with the bureaucracy?
Best ferry I've been on was the Staten Island ferry. Not only is it free, it goes right past the statue of liberty.
Looks like Alaska's already high fuel prices are going to get higher with our refinery shutting down:
The company news release said the North Pole refinery faces a competitive disadvantage.
Refining crude oil into useable product consumes large amounts of energy — measured in British Thermal Units, or Btu — and the cost of that energy helps determines the price the refined product is sold at.
Refineries that run on natural gas pay around $2 per million Btu, while Flint Hills pays $20 to $21 per million Btu because it does not have an inexpensive and ready supply of natural gas at the refinery and must instead burn oil, Cook said.
“It’s the result of the differential between natural gas prices and crude prices, particularly NS (North Slope) crude, which is trading at a premium,” Cook said in a subsequent interview.
Read more: Fairbanks Daily News-Miner - Decreased jet fuel sales a factor in Flint Hills refinery shutdown
(you may also recall the recent news stories about the coast guard having to use it's icebreakers to help a tanker full of heating fuel oil make it here from RUSSIA). So Alaskan crude gets sent to the Gulf Coast, where it's refined into useable product and then shipped back to us, passing through many greedy hands along the way.
I would support it. I travel to the outer islands for work monthly and it would be so much easier, cheaper and better for me (personally) if I could pack my personal vehicle and go.
I ridden on ferries in PNW, East coast and Europe and somehow they all seem to make them work. I think its the same people trying to stop the rail project that keeps anything from moving ahead here. Progress is hated, simply because it means change and change is a bad word in Hawaii. Change to a small, vocal portion of locals implies that they haven't always been right, whether its the school system, crummy roads or backwards politics.
Yes, from a consumer's standpoint that seems true, although from a car rental company's perspective it's a perfect system now, and the airline companies love it too. Keep those conflicts of interest in mind, because they are one key to understanding the current state of affairs.
As I mentioned before, I didn't see any evidence that the car rental companies or the airlines or the existing shipping companies were involved in the opposition to the ferry. It was all genuine grassroots opposition as far as I could tell. Please post if you have information to the contrary, I'd be interested in hearing about it.
Though, you have to admit that those companies would be within their legal rights to lobby legislators, donate to campaigns, and run advertising to promote their businesses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD
...then the Super Ferry had too many unanticipated problems and too much opposition.
The ferry corporation had totally predictable legal troubles. It, with the help and encouragement of the Lingle administration, broke the law. Lots of people were telling them this in the public forum. They obviously chose to ignore it and got sued. The State supreme court ruled against them. There are laws on the books, whether you agree with them or not, you still have to abide by them. I still wonder how Lingle was not held responsible for her actions and those of her administration under her direct control.
However, the following 3 of 5 points are very true:
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD
1. Rough seas and long distances make regular schedules hard to keep. That's not nearly as big an issue for cargo ships as it is for passenger carriers.
2. Environmental concerns, from protecting wildlife to preventing harbor erosion to deterring invasive species create a very complex regulatory and operating environment.
5. The market is limited, and seasonal, creating severe challenges for equipment and staff planning.
Note that in its best month ever, SuperFerry was only running half-full when it announced that in the fall it was cutting down to 2 round-trips a day between Oahu and Kauai, and then in December would cut down to 1.
Actually, it did run full when it had introductory (loss-leader) $5 fares on the opening days. Obviously not a viable business, but then from all the military-industrial ties, I suspect is was never meant to be viable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joliefille
I ridden on ferries in PNW, East coast and Europe and somehow they all seem to make them work. I think its the same people trying to stop the rail project that keeps anything from moving ahead here. Progress is hated, simply because it means change and change is a bad word in Hawaii. Change to a small, vocal portion of locals implies that they haven't always been right, whether its the school system, crummy roads or backwards politics.
And the Hawaiian islands are like the PNW, East coast, and Europe in what demographic and environmental ways? As I mentioned, the Canary islands are most similar, but then who wants dead whales?
Actually, as much as I'm against the ferry as it was planned, I am for rail on Oahu (but maybe I shouldn't speak about that which I do not know :-). Change is not bad, change that hurts our ecosystem is bad. And do not associate the ferry opponents with the supporters of the school system (a veiled jab at the unions), DOT (bureaucracy and inefficiency) or good-old-boy political networks. They are factually, morally, and ideologically unrelated.
I see a lot about this whale hitting stuff - but I can't see anywhere that the ferry ever hit a whale.
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I understand now that Hawaii is far different than coastal Washington or North Carolina, and the problems that came with the Super Ferry. Still, I would have loved to have taken a ride on it, plowing through those seas would have been a total blast. 
